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It was fun while it lasted.
by Kagro X on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:46:09 AM PDT
it was getting old anyway.
Say buh-bye to Jim Inhofe...Andrew Rice for U.S. Senate
by deha on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:52:00 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
Everything is sooooo 1978 when we're talking about it in 2006
Avoiding Theocracy at Home and Neo Cons Abroad
by UniC on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:16:19 PM PDT
so 1789.
Feh. Bastards. What are they doing to my country?
Je suis inondé de déesses
by Marc in KS on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:42:43 PM PDT
Seven score and five years ago... -7.62, -6.36
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:13:08 PM PDT
by rhp on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:50:42 PM PDT
The Constitution wasn't in force until it was ratified by nine states, and that didn't happen until 1789. So at the very earliest, it's a post-1789 mentality.
But that's the same as the pre-9/11 mentality -- from 1789 until 9/11, the Constitution reigned supreme as the foundation of US law. Since 9/11, BushCo have rendered it "quaint."
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:54:21 PM PDT
let's quibble. :-)= I'd argue the Declaration and the successful revolution would be at the beginning of that timeline from a previous history apparenlty now mothballed.
by rhp on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 04:29:16 PM PDT
...that the Declaration is not a legal document. It makes mention of rights and lists grievances based on violations of those rights, but does not enumerate them in any legal sense.
Of course, there were always the Articles of Confederation...
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:01:59 PM PDT
since it is pre-Constitutional is perhaps the greatest oversite of the Founders. It should have been brought into the Constitution as a pre-Preamble or some thing.
Remember that the Declaration only preceded the Constitution by 13 years. It was still very much on the minds of the Founders as the basis of government. Some of the same people that were involved in bringing forth the Declaration were involved in bringing forth the Constitution.
The Declaration of Independence is really the premier document that provided the basis to found this country. The Constitution just puts together the nuts and bolts. It's the Declaration that tells us where our rights come from and why we have a government at all.
To my mind, as great as the Constitution is, the Declaration is of vastly greater importance to the history and development of human society.
"If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy." -teacherken
by offgrid on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:45:25 PM PDT
...didn't.
The Declaration is of tremendous importance, but it's not a legal document in any way.
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:53:03 PM PDT
by an act of Congress
by offgrid on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:54:26 PM PDT
It would call too much attention to their efforts to shred the Constitution.
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:55:50 PM PDT
to legalize the method of overthrowing an existing government.
But if we are really going to fix this country, it will have to be done, in my opinion.
by offgrid on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:14:37 PM PDT
...of this country is that we get to overthrow the government every two years if we choose to do so.
Viva la revolucion!
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:16:21 PM PDT
by offgrid on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:35:02 PM PDT
on whether or not something is a legal document. The point is really the underlying philosophy and beliefs in what we thought was our form of government until W appeared in all his faux glory as the tool of PNAC and the rest of the neocons.
by rhp on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:18:47 PM PDT
Didn't Bush recently tell us that the Supremes had "tacitly" approved infinite detention of anyone he wanted to detain on Guantanamo Bay?
Is there anything left in the Bill of Rights?
The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. Dwight Eisenhower, 1961
by R2 on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:39:58 PM PDT
Remember the silent majority? Now it's the Supreme Court's silence that's being interpreted. When they've got 60% of the people expressing their disapproval, I guess they've got no choice but to spin silence as support.
Democrats: Members of the Democratic Party working to advance democracy; Republicons: Members of the Republicanist Party working to advance Republicanism
by word is bond on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:50:42 PM PDT
...in the Bill of Rights they'll never touch. According to the Rethugs, Congress shall make no law restricting the access of a two-year-old or a convicted serial killer to a machine gun.
by wiscmass on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:14:52 PM PDT
Fascist shredders of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution to spend the rest of their days at GITMO under the same circumstances they instituted there.
I believe Dr. Mudd, who attended to John Wilkes Booth's wounds during his escape, was incarcerated at an old fort at Key West, Florida until his dying days.
What's good enough for one who administered to the wounds of a traitor is good enough for a whole administration full of traitors.
by ama on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:24:15 PM PDT
Not old, just quaint.
by jimreyn on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:51:49 PM PDT
especially not the highest voice in a democracy, the law, as determined by the will of the people.
They will continue to make torture and indefinite detention American values until it no longer becomes politically expedient to the reddest of their red-meat xenophobic base.
PLEASE LET'S WORK OVERTIME ON TAKING BACK HOUSE OR SENATE OR BOTH.
Wonder if Sununu's fired now.
by Republic Not Empire on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 11:53:48 AM PDT
legally bind the President, and he has concluded that the only laws that bind the President in his role as Commander in Chief are those by which he wants to be bound. Of course there's not a shred of evidence that this is consistent with the intent of the Founders, and a lot of evidence that it's directly contrary to their intent, but until the Congress starts taking itself seriously as a co-equal branch of goverenment (and in fact, ultimately the most powerful branch, since it can remove the President and he can't remove the Congress), nothing will change.
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin
by leevank on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:36:48 PM PDT
remeber, he only enforces laws he agrees with. I guess that applies to SCOTUS rulings too. After all he is the king president.
Edward R. Murrow:We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.
by digital drano on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:03:33 PM PDT
how do you guys do the line through the word effect?
"The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting." Milan Kundera
by Guy Fawkes on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 05:20:04 PM PDT
..in the FAQ. It's not pitched at an elementary enough level for me, but may help you.
Another OWW4O (thanks, Cyber Kat!)
by Ahianne on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 05:28:02 PM PDT
by Capn Guts on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:20:35 PM PDT
which branch of the government controls the armed forces.
Whenever the judicial or legislative branches tell Bush what he has to do or stop doing, the Chimpster can just sit in the Oval Office and say, "Yeah? Who's gonna make me? You and what army? Heh-heh!"
This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.
by Mr X on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:19:52 PM PDT
now let him enforce it.
Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!
by ChicagoDem on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:25:15 PM PDT
...to SUPPORT Bush/these kangaroo courts, back when he was on the Fourth Circuit bench.
Now, on the SCOTUS bench as Chief Justice, he recused himself for that precise reason.
Bush would be delighted to enforce Mister Roberts' decision, the one he was part of from the Fourth Circuit, actually.
by Bhishma on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:27:03 PM PDT
But it didn't work in the QUOTE, dammit!
by ChicagoDem on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:44:32 PM PDT
controls the budget for the military. So they can in fact stop him.
Obama, or McCain
by Elise on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:00:10 PM PDT
If Bush ordered the military to do something that Congress explicitly defunded, would the generals do it? Iran-Contra as well as the unauthorized shift of funds from Afghanistan to Iraq would indicate yes.
Unless the abuse were too blatant, in which case the generals would refuse. The key is Bush/Cheney's Orwellian obfuscatory language and whether we can escape from its spell.
Government and laws are the agreement we all make to secure everyone's freedom.
by Simplify on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:42:39 PM PDT
"Not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime." Mukasey
by sailmaker on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:23:35 PM PDT
if we didn't have a rubberstamp Congress. But we do. Oh, boy, do we ever.
by elmo on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:49:46 PM PDT
because good... is dumb.
- Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
by Simplify on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:52:03 PM PDT
We don't have an army. We have a SHELL of an army. And the generals know that. They also know that a navy and air force only go so far - when push comes to shove, you need boots on the ground.
And we don't have those. They're all in Iraq.
by mmacdDE on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:57:50 PM PDT
I guess we were destined to collapse into a mobocracy some day after all. Fuck... maybe we should give all that land back to the Tories.
by ChicagoDem on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:24:36 PM PDT
Some of us have earlier dubs on the land...
...writing from Lakota territory.
Healthcare for ALL! NOW! & OneCare at MySpace
by SarahLee on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 08:29:17 PM PDT
We don't have time for short-term thinking.
by Compound F on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:32:27 PM PDT
there is no such thing as "law."
by Compound F on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:58:38 PM PDT
However, I can't resist a slight updating of your own words, viz:
[T]he reality of hardball in the judicial system is that rights are all theoretical. You don't really have them until you can prove it in court.
I would change to: The reality of hardball in the judicial system is that rights are all theoretical. You don't really have them until you can prove it in the streets.
War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus
by Valtin on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:49:41 PM PDT
all we'll have left is the streets, especially when we get kicked out onto the streets by the banks.
If anyone believes that any 'evidence' will be found not 'reliable' do some reading about the case of Murat Kurnaz. From Chronology of Illegal Detention of Murat Kurnaz :
....the one classified document upon which the CSRT relied is flawed. According to Judge Green, this document, “fails to provide significant details to support its conclusory allegations, does not reveal the sources for its information, and is contradicted by other evidence in the record.” (Green Opinion at 63)
More articles here
Judge Green is a United States District Judge for the District of Columbia. The case of Kurnaz provides evidence of the indifference to the rule of law, and the rules of evidence that will be the hallmark of any form of military tribunals the administration may devise in its efforts to hide evidence of its crimes from the light of a court of law.
Official Culture
by Halcyon on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:50:18 PM PDT
As long as its their law.
by davidgmills on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 01:44:25 PM PDT
Right now, those prisoners have rights because of a treaty entered into by the United States.
Congress has the authority to take those rights away.
That's what this legislation proposes. Key word being "legislation."
This is not an executive fiat, but rather a proposal to have Congress determine that these detainees don't have those rights.
"[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.
by Geekesque on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:42:30 PM PDT
just exactly where are these souls and what is happening to them right now? Where have they been and what has been happening to them for ...oh, the last four years?
Yeah. Sure. Those prisoners have rights all right.
by elmo on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:52:12 PM PDT
without being tried for anything. The GC's allow for detention as long as hostilities are ongoing. So, if you're a member of AQ or the Taliban, you're not going anywhere until hostilities end.
Trying them for criminal offenses is what triggers the military commission debate.
by Geekesque on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 02:55:51 PM PDT
That was actually much more egregious at Abu Ghraib, and obviously elsewhere in Iraq (at least some of those prisoners were eventurally released) in other places in the world, that there is a substantial number of these prisoners that might be fairly easily shown to be pretty much innocent of anything but being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Just throwing it out there.
I also have a problem with the "stateless" arguments being used to undermine the GCs, which also, I thought, even applied to "stateless" parties. Also, though, if these people are nationals, they are not stateless, it seems to me, unless they renounce their citizenship or it is stripped.
To announce...that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
by potownman on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:43:17 PM PDT
whether or not they are bona fide combatants, or just some poor schmuck in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I'm not sure whether there's litigation pending regarding the adequacy of measures in place regarding that right, but I'd be surprised if there weren't.
by Geekesque on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:51:03 PM PDT
That McCain had said that about Guantanamo some time ago. Also that the Supreme Court--again, some time ago--had said that the laws of the United States applied to Guantanamo. The Administration ignored both until now. They could probably ignore Hamdan, as well. There are not much more that one person in each House of Congress with the balls to actually suggest actual accountability sanctions against Bush. And those were for even more specifically demonstrable crimes.
by potownman on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 04:05:54 PM PDT
if George Bush says you are. Case closed!
From what can be gleaned so far from documents released by the government under pressure of the various lawsuits, it would be a frickin' miracle if a single member of AQ or the Taliban happened to actually be detained in Gitmo. Looks mostly like just a bunch of unlucky bystanders, to me.
by elmo on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:44:19 PM PDT
a hearing to determine their status as combatants.
Of course, the devil is in the execution.
by Geekesque on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:49:23 PM PDT
none of these men has ever had such a hearing. Their status as unlawful combatants was determined, as a group and not individually, with a stroke of Jr.'s pen.
I'm so ashamed to be an American right now.
by elmo on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 04:17:35 PM PDT
by Capn Guts on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:27:40 PM PDT
I thought it was actually that Bush claimed broad powers under the AUMF passed by Congress, and the Supreme Court ruled that no, Bush doesn't have that power under the AUMF. The decision was pretty weak about the applicability of the Geneva Conventions or due process to the Guantanamo detainees, just that the Executive can't make up new processes for detainees that don't follow the Geneva Conventions, the UCMJ, or due process of a criminal trial in U.S. federal court. If Congress wants to pass a law to authorize military tribunals, they could do that, and then we start all over challenging the constitutionality of that law.
by dwcal on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:22:50 PM PDT
is that Congress is free to change statutory law or create new statutes in response to SCOTUS opinions interpreting statutes and treaties.
by Geekesque on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:28:57 PM PDT
by its legislative history. Even Congress can't simply disregard the whole body of US law and make new law to replace it that is inconsistant with the nations legal precedents.
Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Impeach, Incarcerate
by rktect on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 04:51:57 PM PDT
Congress is bound only by the Constitution.
by Geekesque on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 07:47:37 PM PDT
to weigh heavily against the government interpertation
A negative inference may be drawn from Congress' failure to include §1005(e)(1) within the scope of §1005(h)(2). Cf., e.g., Lindh v. Murphy, 521 U. S. 320, 330. "If ... Congress was reasonably concerned to ensure that [§§1005(e)(2) and (3)] be applied to pending cases, it should have been just as concerned about [§1005(e)(1)], unless it had the different intent that the latter [section] not be applied to the general run of pending cases." Id., at 329. If anything, the evidence of deliberate omission is stronger here than it was in Lindh. The legislative history shows that Congress not only considered the respective temporal reaches of §§1005(e)(1), (2), and (3) together at every stage, but omitted paragraph (1) from its directive only after having rejected earlier proposed versions of the statute that would have included what is now paragraph (1) within that directive's scope. Congress' rejection of the very language that would have achieved the result the Government urges weighs heavily against the Government's interpretation. See Doe v. Chao, 540 U. S. 614, 621-623. Pp. 7-20.
SCOTUS also considered the legislative history of Congress in evaluating the AUMF and DTA. What that amounts to is equating the legislative history of Congress to legal precedent.
See 317 U. S., at 28-29. Neither the AUMF nor the DTA can be read to provide specific, overriding authorization for the commission convened to try Hamdan. Assuming the AUMF activated the President's war powers, see Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U. S. 507, and that those powers include authority to convene military commissions in appropriate circumstances, see, e.g., id., at 518, there is nothing in the AUMF's text or legislative history even hinting that Congress intended to expand or alter the authorization set forth in UCMJ Art. 21. Cf. Ex parte Yerger, 8 Wall. 85, 105.
Congress is bound only by the Constitution and not precedent in the same way the SCOTUS is bound only by the Constitution and not precedent. The reason given in other decisions is that people making decisions about their future have some right to expect stability in their government.
Think of it in terms of a stock. If it was up one day and down the next and its chart went all over the place it would be an uncertain and risky investment.
by rktect on Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 03:44:13 AM PDT
of a particular bill to determine Congressional intent.
The SCOTUS is bound by precedent to a certain degree--by choice. Congress has no such restraint--self-imposed or otherwise.
by Geekesque on Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 08:05:02 AM PDT
just like the other two branches.
Reading back through the history of the SCOTUS it seems clear that if Congress were to attempt now to pass a law banning abortion, the Supreme Court would overthrow that law because Roe v Wade is "settled law"
The reason is the issue has been settled and can be thought of as having been settled by the legislative history of earlier Congressional debate which now acts as a weighty Congressional precedent alongside its own legal precedent so far as the Supreme Court is concerned.
by rktect on Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 09:50:54 AM PDT
because it would be unconstitutional.
If Roe v. Wade were overturned, it would be a question of whether Congress has the authority to ban abortions.
Congress has the power to completely get rid of 'settled law'--within constitutional parameters.
by Geekesque on Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 10:10:10 AM PDT
So what makes it unconstitutional?
The preamble says
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
We the People of the United States, in Order
to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty
to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
My answer would be the courts rather than Congress have the final say on abortion. Since once the courts have ruled it becomes settled law, the courts look at the legislative history to try and follow the process of deliberation that led Congress to whatever result it came to.
My expectation is that the same sort of logic applies to the issues of Hamdan
by rktect on Thu Jul 27, 2006 at 04:14:21 PM PDT
...since the jackass in the Whitehouse still refuses to budge I guess its time for the 2x4.
The 2006 midterm Congressional elections are gonna do a mac on the Bush Co. PC.
by rktect on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 04:46:00 PM PDT
Dana Curtis Kincaid Ad Astra per Aspera! http://www.angrytoyrobot.blogspot.com The enemy is not man, the enemy is stupidity.
by angrytoyrobot on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 05:00:51 PM PDT
wide narrow
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