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over on the other thread, so most of my argument is over there.
That said, you want it here as well, fine- just keep in mind that here in MD it's about 5am and it's been one hell of a day, so I'm not going to be putting too much more into this tonight.
My short answer is this.
Follow this path that I laid out on the other thread-
Finally, confirmation that they both spoke, from after the event had finnished from another organizational co-sponsor of the event,
the Jewish Community Relations Council of Greater Washington
go to the homepage, in the upper left hand corner click "DC Rally: America Stands with Israel". You'll be taken to a page that contains this-
Speakers at the rally included His Excellency Daniel Ayalon - Ambassador of Israel, Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS), Congressman Ben Cardin (D-MD), Congressman Brad Sherman (D-CA), Congressman Robert Wexler (D-FL), Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL), Governor Robert Ehrlich, Reverend John Hagee, Rabbi Stuart Weinblatt and Rabbi Levi Shemtov. Irene Kaplan, President and Dr. Misha Galperin, Vice President & CEO represented the Jewish Federation of Greater Washington. Susan Weinberg, President and Ron Halber, Executive Director represented the JCRC.
So yes, they shared a podium.
From here, I guess it's just a matter of personal opinion. You may see it as a bunch of people with different agendas coming together on one stage to as I originally said, find "common cause" with one another on particular point.
If you're ok with that, you're ok with that. Nothing I'm going to do or say is going to change that.
As I said in my diary title, these are reasons I will not be voting for Ben Cardin.
For me, I guess I just view it differently.
I personally am not willing to share many stages/podiums/soapboxes or catboxes for that matter, even with people who some would feel I might 'make common cause with' because well, not only do I not want myself 'tarnished' with what they stand for, but I also am not willing to elevate/legitimize, someone say, like the likes of Hagee as any kind of politically 'legitimate' figure in any realm.
But the Hagee and (broadly speaking) Jewish association is not just a matter of two steams coming together at a certain point because they are both going some supposed same direction.
One ultimately has to look at Hagee, yes even beyond his immediate words and actions, and look to where he's really going with all this.
Does his end-times prophetic senario accept Jewish people as they are, or does he ultimately think that in order to avoid eternal death, they must change. Change ultimately to become more like him?
I think to some large degree, that question goes unanswered, for now at least- in part because the answers may become highly uncomfortable for many of the people sharing stages.
Ultimately, one really has to ask, are these just people coming together and sharing a podium because they share at least one thing in common, or are they genuinely two completely different things sharing a space for now, but who ultimately have deeply irreconcilable differences pulling in opposing directions?
Flat out- is it acceptable to share a stage with someone who ultimately may believe that in order for them to get to to heaven many of the people in the audience will have to die?
My point is, while perhaps mutually politically expedient, is it really what you want? Is it really, well, ethical, to share a stage with someone who in his mind at least, in order to get to his god has to ultimately work for your anilhilation?
As to what Hagee believes about end times prophecy, all we know is that it's priorty 1 for him, and in the short term, in order to get there, he feels he's biblically mandated to "bless Israel" (and the Jewish people, see Genesis 12:3) if he personally, is going to get to heaven (never mind the rationality of all that, I'm talking about his own beliefs.
Without getting neck deep in theology from here, well, I'll bow out.
That's just me and my personal standards for sharing a podium, I don't work together in any capacity (whenever possible, that is) with people who ultimately may just want me dead.
Long answer to a short question, but as I said, this is my vote and these are my reasons.
barf.org : a resource for all who work to monitor and counter the Biblical America movement.
by stormcoming on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 01:36:19 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
but "they were at the same place at the same time" doesn't constitute Cardin's acceptance (much less endorsement) of Hagee's radical agenda. Do you have any quotes where Cardin embraced Hagee?
Cardin voted against the Iraq war debacle way before it was cool to be antiwar. IMO this trumps his attendance at the event.
He definately has my vote.
by OnStarboardTack on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 04:26:36 AM PDT
Yeah, lots of websearching, because let's face it, I brought the subject up, and if I'm going to point it out, the least I can do is try to document it as best I can- and that also includes taking note of where the limitations on that research are.
Your question of directly embracing the Hagee is an important question, and one I've been on for the better part of last night.
No, I do not have any direct quotes where Cardin has embranced Hagee personally and directly.
All I have, and again, for me, this was enough, is his willingness to take part at an event that was in essence a weekend-long 'comming out party' for CUFI, and to personally share a stage with the Hagee, Erlich, Brownback, and Republican Party chairman Ken Mehlman, etc.
Yes, politicians from opposite parties share stages, no biggie, but it's ultimately about the nature of the event, and the ends those with power are trying to achieve at the expense of those out of power- participation in that makes it something not so ordinary.
Yes, there are good people in the midst of all this event, but that doesn't mean they'll have ultimate control over the direction this so called solidary rally and summit's work takes in light of the wingnuts, and the power structure that is ALSO a part of the same work.
Yes, Jewish groups, politicians, and supporters, are involved, and yes, they're in one hell of a bind, because the evagelical movement in addition to being in power in Washington, has become a prime support structure politically for Israel, and so Jewish groups and Israeli ministers are reciprocating. That said though, the evengelicals are in it for their own reasons, not all of which would end so well for Jews if the evangelical's pipe dreams ever were to somehow magically come true. It's a symbiotic relationship, wherein they each need each other.
(Not that it's in my diary, but if people want to bring in other issues for Cardin, I guess, again, for me, I just point out his vote to reauthorize the Patriot Act.)
by stormcoming on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 05:32:45 AM PDT
if you look hard enough, I'm sure you can find a reason NOT to vote for EVERYBODY!!
I mean, Russ Feingold co-sponsered a major bill with that traitor John McCain, so he's out
Even Barack Obama has worked together with crazy Tom Coburn, so he's out.
No politician is perfect, so get over it. You don't have to vote for him in the primary, but picking out itty-bitty things and blowing them out of proportion to justify it is asinine.
"They're trying to fool you. They're trying to scare you. And they're not telling you the truth." Obama '08
by bawbie on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 06:26:47 AM PDT
wide narrow
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