View Story | 99 comments
Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)
It's Bill who is the natural politician, not Hillary. I don't think she was ever much help to him on the stump. Standing by him during the Gennifer Flowers incident was the one thing she did do to help his Presidential campaign, but I don't think that amounts to "running for him."
"We are the ones we have been waiting for" --Barack Obama reminding us we have to hold him accountable.
by Jim in Chicago on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 09:44:45 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
(grimace)Gal Friday.
While Bill has the kind of personal charisma you just can't fake, he also apparently had a certain lack of self control that could have rapidly sunk his political career. Hillary understood him well enough to keep him on track and out of trouble. Bill never seemed to have the organizational skills that Hillary has, the kind of political acumen that can size up people and situations to the best advantage.
Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!
by Fabian on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 09:52:42 AM PDT
his hatchet man.
Hype or Reality: the Senate records of Obama and Clinton
by Grassroots Mom on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 09:55:54 AM PDT
Mostly because I find it easier to imagine Hillary chewing someone out than Bill pulling a Trump("You're FIRED!").
by Fabian on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:00:37 AM PDT
She is of the Martha Stewart school of management, which involves a lot of screaming at people. There are also plenty of men who belong to this school. Joe Trippi is among them.
by Grassroots Mom on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:05:49 AM PDT
Many of her staff have good things to say about her, and have stayed with her for years and years.
Sometimes, a cackle is the best medicine!
by ghost2 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:18:20 AM PDT
And I do believe that at times, women have a harder time working for other women. We respond to each other differently and assertive women can be intimidating to both men and other women. We are our worst critics and we scrutinize one another more than men. Some may disagree, but I really believe it to be true.
2008 National Champions. Rock Chalk Jayhawk.
by Scout Finch on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:51:28 AM PDT
Mostly because I find it easier to imagine Hillary chewing someone out than Bill pulling a Trump
Nope, completely the contrary. In George Stephanoploulo's book All too human, he says Bill would scream and curse at the staff everyday, but when Hillary got mad at you, she'd give you "the silent treatment".
by William Domingo on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 11:05:52 AM PDT
by Fabian on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:01:42 AM PDT
campaigns - from his first run for congress to both his presidential runs. His infamous war room, with the Speed Kills t-shirts, was her creation. She's the fighter of the two of them and is the one that understood first that you have to respond to every developing meme quickly or it becomes conventional wisdom. Bill's war room was ground breaking and that's largely her invention. That's someone who understanding campaigning and public discourse in their soul.
The idea she isn't a natural campaigner is preposterous. She wouldn't have a 30 lead on Obama right now if she wasn't. Campaigns win - not candidates. What the past 27 years has taught me is that lousy candidates (Reagan, both Bush's) with brilliant campaigns win, and brilliant candidates (Dukakis, Gore, Kerry) with lousy campaigns lose. In Gore and Kerry's case, they both managed to win and lose. Bizarre but true.
The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 09:59:40 AM PDT
If you think Gore ran a bad campaign, then read the Vanity Fair article to get a real idea of what he was up against in the press. Yes his campaign made some mistakes vis-a-vis the press, but read the article.
by Grassroots Mom on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:08:13 AM PDT
Despite that, Gore ran one of the worst campaigns imaginable. I volunteered for the guy, I love the guy, I gave him time and money. Had he attacked the memes about him as soon as they came out, even with the theft, he'd be president today. I've read everything i can find on both elections. I've sat down with a statistician who showed me through the numbers of the Florida vote - everything from voting booth placement to the disenfranchisement. I did an immense amount of research because I was thinking about writing a book about how to steal elections. Alas, someone beat me to it. What happened is horrible.
But back to Gore - he was handicapped because he's not a fighter. When people starting accusing him of being a liar - which is the most preposterous thing you can accuse him of - he didn't fight back. And to make matters dramatically worse, he joked about the meme. All of that stuff was an albatross around his neck in the post-election debacle. Kerry made the same damn mistake.
Just think about this campaign though - Obama issues a hit, and Hillary slices his head off. His campaign releases a nasty press release and two days later, he's apologizing. That's the kind of stuff you did not see in either the Gore or the Kerry campaign. And it's part of the reason none of the current candidates have been able to get any traction on her.
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:19:47 AM PDT
sorry, but this a completely different year from 2000. For one thing, Bill Clinton was a big liability then where he is not now. The media lied about Gore all the time, even the liberal media, in fact they were the worst. He had to run against the right and the left and the DLC which undermined him.
Clinton is not immediately coming back when attacked, she hasn't had to. Her opponents are beating themselves up. So don't tell me how tough she is in that department.
Gore ran the right campaign for him. The election was stolen and none of us could have predicted what happened. By 2004 Kerry should have known better, but he bought the DLC meme that Gore screwed it up (the one you are selling) and he was not prepared.
Gore/Colbert2008
by MollyStark on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:50:49 AM PDT
The problem is that Gore didn't challenge their lies. He just didn't. Kerry took days to do it. The media lies about Hillary and the other candidates now. The media doesn't like Democrats and will sabotage them where ever, and whenever they can.
Gore knew what Clinton had done when attacked, and he didn't use the same model. He made the idiotic mistake that Obama is making now that what happened to Clinton was Clinton's fault and that it wouldn't happen to him because he didn't misbehave.
Mondale didn't fight back. Dukakis didn't fight back until the last few weeks. Clinton fought back. Gore didn't fight back. Kerry fight back. Hillary does.
And as for your charge that she hasn't needed to - bullshit. Obama's campaign released the D-Punjab memo, and within two days he was apologizing to her. Most of the fight back doesn't happen publicly. It happens by contacting reporters and providing evidence that the charge (whatever it is) is false and then being willing to go public if necessary.
So, please, show me a response from the Gore campaign within 24 hours of the charge that he said he invented the internet. It didn't happen. Show me a response within 24 hours to the charge that he said he discovered Love Canal - another totally false story that he didn't respond to.
You think he ran a great campaign - great, show me where he responded aggressively and immediately to either of these stories.
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:09:55 PM PDT
handicapped Gore to double digit deficits, which make it harder to win. Gore also had to overcome RWNM/media/Nader smears.
Despite all of that Gore out-polled Clinton'96 among Democrats and Independents: 1996 exit polls
2000 exit polls
More on the 2000 election here:
The 2000 Presidential election: A Synopsis
Evan Bayh is a McCain/Lieberman clone.
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 11:11:50 AM PDT
president in the latter half of the 20th century. No one's buying it except people who hate Hillary. Give it up. You're doing nothing to help your candidate.
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:26:37 PM PDT
The press had been having a field day with that for over a year! Perhaps you think that a bona fide impeachment, the long drawn out investigation and Bill Clinton being grilled in front of Congress was forgotten by 2000?
Bill Clinton might have been personally popular, and his personal problems might not have been administration-wide scandals, but impeachment and Lewinski cast a cloud over what should have been eight years of acheivment.
Some things just leave a bad taste in people's mouths. Why is the AUMF vote a deal breaker for some people?(go Kucinich!)
by Fabian on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:50:07 PM PDT
than over the Democrats. people didn't like or approve of the impeachment. Amazing how EVERYTHING is Clinton's fault.
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 01:26:12 PM PDT
But don't tell me Bill Clinton didn't come out looking like a two timing lying weasel.
by Fabian on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 02:14:46 PM PDT
(that's why he polled 60-67% unfavorables "as a person"; even I wouldn't leave a teenage sister or daughter under Bill Clinton's care; of course, not :)) but didn't think that removing him from office was justified. At the same time, people were fatigued of Clinton.
Pew Center poll Released: September 14, 2000 Introduction and Summary Clinton fatigue, which first surfaced more than a year ago, has not diminished. In fact, more voters today completely agree with the statement "I am tired of all the problems associated with the Clinton administration," than did a year ago (48% vs. 36% in August 1999). Clinton fatigue is prevalent among all major demographic groups. Even 56% of Democrats say they have grown weary of Clinton, and fully 78% of independents agree. The percent of voters who wish Clinton could run for a third term has remained steady since last year. Just one-quarter wish Clinton could run again, while seven-in-ten disagree. ------------- I wish Bill Clinton could run for a third term Sep'00: Agree (27%), Disagree (71%) Aug'99: Agree (28%), Disagree (71%) Mar'99: Agree (28%), Disagree (71%)
Pew Center poll
Released: September 14, 2000
Introduction and Summary
Clinton fatigue, which first surfaced more than a year ago, has not diminished. In fact, more voters today completely agree with the statement "I am tired of all the problems associated with the Clinton administration," than did a year ago (48% vs. 36% in August 1999).
Clinton fatigue is prevalent among all major demographic groups. Even 56% of Democrats say they have grown weary of Clinton, and fully 78% of independents agree. The percent of voters who wish Clinton could run for a third term has remained steady since last year. Just one-quarter wish Clinton could run again, while seven-in-ten disagree.
-------------
I wish Bill Clinton could run for a third term Sep'00: Agree (27%), Disagree (71%) Aug'99: Agree (28%), Disagree (71%) Mar'99: Agree (28%), Disagree (71%)
It's a complex set of feelings American had towards Bill Clintons.
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 02:27:31 PM PDT
somehow gave them control of the White House, the Senate AND the House.
Not everything is Clinton's fault, but that filthy triangulation is part and parcel of the "Democrats don't stand for anything" meme.
by bronte17 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:02:52 PM PDT
during 1999-2000.
Clinton: 60-67% personal unfavorable (99-00).
"You're doing nothing to help your candidate."
I don't think Clinton should have been impeached. I supported him strongly during impeachment, as did Gore.
But, it's irrefutable that Clinton harmed Gore with his reckless bahavior (after helped him win in 1992, and worked hard towards their joint successes).
by NeuvoLiberal on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 02:23:17 PM PDT
because Perot split off the vote for Bush I.
Clinton inherited a world where the Berlin Wall had just come down and Russia was in turmoil and dissolving.
We had a window of opportunity to pursue peace and stability in lieu of a Cold War. Clinton/Gore pursued an economic policy favorable to the middle class - across the globe. It's a solid policy and won lots of hearts.
Unfortunately, the rabid freaks of the GOP had their neocon plans interrupted and the quadrupling of our national debt under Reagan had to be addressed. So, Clinton reorganized and cut the military. The outrage was vicious.
Clinton is an extremely intelligent man, but his flaws undermine his strengths. He did manage to give people the perception of caring and empathy... especially with that little biting lip thing... but he could be ruthless when necessary. He took care of himself and made sure Hilary was set up to proceed... at the expense of the Democratic Party and our nation.
by bronte17 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 03:59:21 PM PDT
and you're still saying the same thing.
If Hillary Clinton is ruthless, the Republicans are far more ruthless. If she's to win on negative campaigning alone, she will have to get much dirtier than they are. She'll need her own Coulters and Limbaughs, except a thousand times more vicious. And those she does not have and will not have.
But back to Gore - he was handicapped because he's not a fighter. When people starting accusing him of being a liar - which is the most preposterous thing you can accuse him of - he didn't fight back.
Everybody piled on Gore. It wasn't just that they smeared him. They actually called him a liar every time he opened his mouth. If every reporter starts calling you a liar WTF are you supposed to do? Say "I'm not a liar?" Real convincing.
Bill Clinton's personal problems also hurt the Gore campaign. This poll taken in 1999 concluded:
While Gore does benefit from Clinton's robust job approval ratings, he is clearly being hurt by weariness with problems of the Clinton administration. An overwhelming majority (74%) of Americans agree with the statement, "I am tired of all the problems associated with the Clinton administration." This view is held by 77% of Independents and 64% of Democrats. Among those who express fatigue, 60% say they would vote for Bush over Gore in a two-way 2000 match-up; only 35% pick Gore.
According to the poll, if the election had been held in April 1999, Gore would have lost to Bush, 54% to 41%.
But despite the media ganging up on him, despite the negatives from Bill Clinton's scandals, despite Ralph Nader, he closed an initial 18%-15% deficit in the polls and won the popular vote.
Consider Hillary's current position. 70% of people hate this war and the disaster of the Bush presidency. The media has anointed Hillary as the "inevitable" candidate and the frontrunner. For God's sake, even Bush has said she'd be a formidable opponent.
Despite all this, she barely beats Rudy in the polls, 49%-47%. In the same poll (the CNN poll of Oct. 12-14), Gore beat Rudy by a larger margin, 52%-46%.
I have explained to you why I consider Gore to be by far the most qualified to be president. You're not doing your candidate any favors by your attacks on Gore.
by limpidglass on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 11:12:51 AM PDT
Everyone said Gore was a liar. A Pew Research poll found that about 3/4 of all the articles in 2000 mentioned that he wasn't truthful, while most on Bush mentioned his "new kind of conservatism". (in the Vanity Fair article for this month. Google Vantiy Fair Gore for the exact quote).
So how do you come out swinging on that? People did try. On the Love Canal thing, a high school student who was there and had video confronted the Times and Post reporters with the facts, that they and not Gore had lied. Both papers did print corrections. But of course, it was too little and too late.
by Grassroots Mom on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 11:34:21 AM PDT
within 24 hours becomes a political truth. i don't remember which assault of Gore's veracity was the first. But for the sake of argument, let's just say it was the "al gore says he invented the internet" bullshit.
You fight that by sending out an immediate press release detailing how aggressively you championed the internet. Gore's the VP. He can get on any talk show immediately. He can probably get a spokes person on a talk show immediately as well. You go on talk shows yourself (depending upon how aggressively you feel you need to fight something) or you get your spokespeople on and you talk about what you did to help create the internet. You offer up experts on the subject to the panel shows to talk about what you did. You blanket the media with an immediate response. You talk to reporters at major media outsets and you offer them an exclusive interview if they'll allow you to address this stuff - which, of course, they'll be delighted if you do.
And it is a constant battle. There is a lot of stuff a candidate has to fight non-stop through out the campaign. What you don't do is ignore it because if you ignore it, it sticks. Gore did worse. He joked about it.
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:25:39 PM PDT
isn't there into my responses because you're locked into a way of thinking. I like Gore. He's a great guy who would make a brilliant president. He was treated hideously by the press. Hideously.
He ran a lousy campaign. The reason the liar meme stuck is because he didn't fight it immediately before it spread.
The difference between Clinton and Gore is that Clinton won the election and then won the Whitewater/Travel Office/Lewinsky impeachment battle. Gore won the election as well but lost the battle. The difference between the two is that Clinton fought every charge immediately. Gore didn't. He didn't believe that anyone would ever buy that he's a liar, and he didn't do it. When that internet press release story went out, he should have been on national tv the next day talking about his role in the creation of the internet. Had he done that, the story would have turned into a positive for him. Instead, he's still the butt of jokes about it.
You're still saying the same stuff. Your rhetoric is the reason Dems win. You're encouraging Democrats to be passive and not learn from their mistakes. My point is fight and fight aggressively. Don't assume a media discussion is every going to go your way. Don't assume the public won't buy a lie told about you.
by lorelynn on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:17:30 PM PDT
Your rhetoric is the reason Dems win. You're encouraging Democrats to be passive and not learn from their mistakes.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're full of shit. I am saying no such thing. I'll just throw your own words back at you:
You're reading stuff that isn't there into my responses because you're locked into a way of thinking.
Will Gore have to counter smears if he runs? Absolutely he will. But he has enormous advantages that Hillary lacks.
Hillary hasn't yet faced the full power of the RW media machine. They're waiting till she gets the nomination. Right now it's only other Democrats she has to worry about, and they don't play nearly as dirty as the Republicans. I really don't see any indication that she would be able to respond more effectively than Gore would.
Recently the media started in on Hillary's "cackle". What exactly did she do to slap that one down? Now it's out there, and you can bet they'll bring it back if she wins the nomination.
The problem with the anti-Gore smears of 2000 is that they were not just individual lies, but an entire, coherent narrative, tacitly agreed on by the pundits. You cannot fight accusations of being a liar if the media says that every word that comes out of your mouth is a lie.
If you're painted alternatively as a weak-willed woman and the Wicked Witch of the West (as they will undoubtedly do to Hillary if she's the nominee) everything you say or do will be seen through that frame. And what can you say to counter that? "I'm not a weak-willed woman" or "I'm not the Wicked Witch of the West"? Do you realize how lame that would sound?
Gore understands the dysfunctional media machine, as one can see from The Assault on Reason. If he runs he will exploit the power of the Internet to debunk the lies and get his message out, and, having learned from bitter experience, will handle the conventional media with more care.
Hillary has shown no such distrust or understanding of the media. She'll walk right into what they'll fling at her, and it will be ugly.
by limpidglass on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:25:25 PM PDT
that those who go on and on about Gore's "terrible campaign" haven't read "Assault on Reason"?
by Grassroots Mom on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:37:09 PM PDT
how the media works. I watched Jib Jab's bit on the media - and they are right. We had better media when there were three broadcast networks. Now we have a bajillion cable "news" shows which are anything from ego driven pundits to gossip hack jobs to breathless "Breaking!" news music videos.
by Fabian on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 05:43:32 PM PDT
campaign staff to make some heads roll?
by bronte17 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 03:50:52 PM PDT
wide narrow
View Story | 99 comments