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  •  How dare you think of the stars? (0+ / 0-)

    How can you think that the human race deserves to be exported?  Is it not enough for you that we are destroying planet Earth?  The human race is not worthy of its own planet, and you dare to dream of destroying other worlds?

    You say that we need to exploit space, that if we do not do so we are doomed because of lack of resources.  You say that we must continue our economic development, and not stand idly by and let civilization crumble.  I say that you are fools.  You underestimate our survivability on earth in your attempts to provide justification for your bloated egos, and for your physicist's and engineer's wet dreams.

    Tell the Amazonian tribes pushed out of their lands by economic development that our civilization is good.  Tell the Inuit whose ancestral hunting grounds are melting because of our economic development that our civilization is good.  Tell the tribes of Borneo whose forests will shortly be turned into Palm Oil plantations that our economic development is good.

    If we cannot survive on our own earth, then our civilization deserves to die and be forgotten, and let the earth heal itself as the years pass.

    Go hiking.  Get away from your computers, from your calculators, and your TVs.  Take off your shoes.  Get your feet bloody on the rocks.  Sleep under the stars, and think for a minute of how lucky you are to be alive to watch them, and how much larger and far more important they are than you, than me, and than every other foolish, petty artifact of humanity that ever was or ever can be.

    The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

    by El Yoss on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 10:41:21 PM PDT

    •  So, humanity deserves to die? (0+ / 0-)

      I for one don't believe we do.  Yes, we've done some horrible things (you've cited some excellent examples).  I would argue that we've also done some very good things - we created things of real beauty, such as the Mona Lisa, Beethoven's 9th symphony, countless other forms of art.  We've seen that there exists something beyond simply getting what we want.  We've learned to acknowledge our short comings.  We've begun to realize that we are all in this together, and we needn't be fighting each other.  

      Further, you mention the tribes of Borneo - well, if we move to off-planet, we don't have to force them to turn their forests into plantations.  

      Furthermore, I would argue that its not just humanity, but it is life that will be expanding (I'll be damn surprized if we can survive without other forms of earth life).  We are, for better or worse, the current culmination of life on earth (not saying we are the end  all of it, but we are the current culmination of it).  If we go extinct, we are saying that intellegent life is a dead end.  Given that life is likely very common within the Univerese, that seems awfully arrogant to me.

      To quote Delenn "We are star stuff, we are the universe, made manifest, trying to figure itself out. As we have both learned, sometimes the universe requires a change of perspective."  We'll get that change of perspective by going off planet

      •  Oh, you misunderstand (0+ / 0-)

        The tribes in Borneo aren't forced to turn their forests into plantations.  It is the Indonesian government that has DECIDED to turn their forests into plantations.  For economic development.  No amount of space exploitation would change that.  You intend to get cooking oil from mars?

        The current culmination of life on earth?  Bull.  I'd say we as a species are the most embarassing product of natural selection.  We kill, destroy, and ravage each other and our environment like no other species.

        Star stuff?  Don't flatter yourself.  We are nothing more than any other animal.  A human is a mammal, a primate, a great ape, that has developed intelligence through the process of evolution through natural selection.  You shit.  You fart.  You scratch yourself in odd places.  And as a human you happen to possess intelligence.  It doesn't make you any better than an armadillo, and I could easily say that it makes you worse.  I don't seem to recall armadillos invading other countries for oil or grudges.

        Humanity does not deserve to die.  But it does not deserve to be placed above the rest of the natural world.  And like the rest of the natural world, if it dies, it dies, and something else will take its place.

        The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

        by El Yoss on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:27:44 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you can get cooking oil from a variety of options (0+ / 0-)

          and space development can provide you with the energy needed to make cooking oil.  In addition, if you offer an alternative to the Indonesian government to get rich that doesn't destroy the land, and the tribes, don't you think they would take you up on that offer?

          as for current culmination of life on earth - the fact that we can do all of that proves we are the culmination of life.  That doesn't mean our motives are  good or poor, that our ethics are to be lauded or scorned - it merely means we are the most powerful, most influential, most adaptable, most intellegent lifeform to ever have evolved on this planet.  But if go extinct, we are saying that this great thing the the earth has produced, humanity, is/was a mistake, and that life can only come to a bad end.  I for one feel that would be a horrible waste of resources, and we've wasted plenty already.  

          As for starstuff - your body (assuming you are fairly average) has the following composition
          Oxygen (65.0%)
          Carbon (18.5%)
          Hydogen (9.5%)
          Nitrogen (3.2%)
          Calcium (1.5%)
          Phosphorus (1.0%)
          Potassium (0.4%)
          Sulfur (0.3%)
          Sodium (0.2%
          Chlorine (0.2%)
          Magnesium (0.1%)
          Iodine (0.1%)
          Iron (0.1%)
          Plus other trace elments.  Now, those elements, were created through the fusing of hydrogen.  Where does hydrogen fuse?  right now, only one place we know of, and its 1 AU from us.  Now, it wasn't the sun that produced the matter in you, but it was produced by a star that was here billions of years ago - proof of that is in the form of all the heavy elements in the world - those can't come about without a supernova event, which agains, only happens in stars.

          We truly are starstuff.

          As for arguing that humanity is above other life - I don't see myself arguing that we are.  Space development doesn't place us over life - indeed, quite the opposite, we won't be going off-planet without various other organisms, to help with food and water and air production.  In fact, quite the opposite, I would argue we do better by bring life to places where no life previously existed.

          •  If you think that (0+ / 0-)

            Any government or corporation anywhere would always (or even usually) pick a sustainable, long-term yield over a quick buck, you sadly misunderstand human nature.

            Where do you get off proclaiming that we are the culmination of life on earth?  Because we can do stuff?  Because we are successful at surviving?

            You want successful?  To quote Steven Jay Gould, it is the Age of Bacteria.  It has always been the Age of Bacteria.  It will always be the Age of Bacteria.  Bacteria are far more successful, abundant, and widespread than any other group of organisms.  By the criteria of success, the bacteria are a far more important group of organisms than are humans.

            Oh, we are great because we can do stuff like invade other countries, and that our ethics and motives are irrelevant?  Then by that criteria, you would also say that the holocaust was a glorious example of what the human race can achieve through the technology of railroads, barbed wire, and ovens.

            Humans are no more than any other organism.  We are something that evolved by random chance.  The Earth did not create us on purpose, and would not care a whit were we to all die tomorrow.  The Earth's ecosystems would, in fact, be quite lucky if we did so.  The Earth is quite resiliant, given enough time and lack of human interference.  In a few thousand years, an eyeblink in evolutionary time, there would be almost no hint that we had ever existed.  Life would go on, just without us.

            If we hadn't killed off all the rest of the primates by that time, it would not surprise me to learn that a new highly intelligent species evolved within a few million years after the demise of man.

            The sad fact that you have to face is that, in the long run, humans simply aren't that important.  That is not to say that we shouldn't strive for justice and freedom in our everyday lives.  But it is to say that we shouldn't let our egos become so bloated that we put ourselves before the rest of existance.

            The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

            by El Yoss on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 12:11:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Its not a matter of long term investment (0+ / 0-)

              because investing in space isn't something that will only result in a return on investment in 50 years - it will happen very soon, as evidence by the works of Elon Musk, Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, and yes, even Al Gore (who was at last year's X Prize Cup).  

              As for culmination - your trying to pin down the idea of success or culmination to either 1 thing (survival of the species), or trying to imbide some sort of ethical aspect to culmination (after all, Nazi Germany was the culmination of antisemitism, but its not something to celebrate).  Borrowing from the dictionary, it is derived from culminate, which means to reach the highest point.  

              The highest point, speaking from the perspective of life, isn't something that can be determined using a single metric.  It isn't determined simply by numbers of particular species, or whatever ethical ideals you wish to view.  It comes from a number of things - the extent to which we can change the universe (quite a bit), the capabilities of a single unit of the species (ie 1 person, or 1 bacteria), the intelligence of the species (care to pit me against a lizard?) the growth rate of the species, how long a species has been in existence, and, perhaps what I would argue is most important, the ability to create.  Up until the advent of the common ancestor of great apes and human beings, the creative ability was very limited - shelter, offspring, and biological extensions.  That ancestor added a new creative ability - tools.  Humanity has take that creative ability, and created the idea of something beyond the physical world - art, music, spirituality, law - none of those truly exist as physical objects, but they came about because of our creativity.  And, yes, sometimes that creativity manifests itself in terrible ways.  

              The point is that we are the culmination because of all those reasons

              While I do agree that the earth didn't create us on purpose, energy get expended (well, technically transfered into a non usable form) all the time, and part of that energy usage comes from us, and that energy (at least the energy that we expend, and I would argue that the energy that all life expends) has purpose - we don't eat because of randomness in our lives - we eat because we are alive, and want to stay alive.  (Does this mean that there is a God?  I would argue yes, but even if you are an atheists, I know plenty of atheists who have purpose in their lives, and they transfer energy...)

              Further, I would in addition argue that, while the existence of purpose within the universe, the existence of patterns is not.  I make this point because life is a part of that pattern, and part of the pattern that is life, can be seen in the persistent push towards intelligence and creativity (compare brain size evolution).  Had the dinosaurs not been wiped out 65 million years ago, there is good reason to suspect that right now, in place of humanity would have evolved a dinosaur version.  

              You seem so quick to dismiss humans "Humans aren't that important", or "humans are no more than any other organism", and while thats true, that doesn't mean we are unimportant, or any less than any other organism.  Elon Musk has commented on how changing things were when life left the ocean, and how it will be comparable to when life truly moves to something that includes more than just planet earth.    I would agree - we are a part of this.  Going into space isn't about satisfying humanity's ego - I would argue that its about satisfying life's ego, and life's continue push towards something that includes more and more area that is currently lifeless.  

              You seem awful quick to commit us to something like a hunter/gather society, or a basic agrarian society  - what if life wants us to find something more than that?

    •  I am curious (0+ / 0-)

      do you think that technology is somehow bad?  

      •  Not inherently. (0+ / 0-)

        Technology can be used for good (i.e. refrigeration of food) and evil (i.e.  warrantless wiretapping).  In an ideal world, technology is a means to an end.

        I believe that there are many people, especially physicists and engineers who really should know better, who value technology solely for its own sake and see the means as an end unto itself.  They expand and develop their technology without care for the purpose it is used for.  It is their bread and butter, and they don't seem to notice or much care at the practical applications the technology is put to.  Without technology, there would be no warrantless wiretapping, no identity theft, no spy satellites with the capability to peer through your roof.  Technology has given governments the power to control human freedom that they never had in previous eras.  I can only imagine that it will get worse instead of better.

        And as such, because of human nature, because of our evolved intelligence, even technologies created with the utmost idealism in mind are turned to evil.  If our civilization collapses, it shouldn't be something to mourn over.  Somewhere, I imagine, there is likely another highly evolved intelligent species, and hopefully it will have achieved a level of practical idealism and restraint that humans will never reach.  Maybe they treat all with compassion and selflessness, and think on how their actions affect the whole, and not just the individual.  That species may truly deserve to reach for the stars.

        But we do not.

        The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

        by El Yoss on Tue Nov 20, 2007 at 11:52:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The flip side to those is that (0+ / 0-)

          there are examples of horrible developments that have saved countless people.  Should we discard all that was learned through horrible experimentation on humans because we don't like where it comes from.  

          Without technology, there can be no mediciene to save people, there can be know way to connect easily with people on opposite sides of this planet, and perhaps most importantly, without the technology of clothing and shelter, we would not be suriving on large parts of this planet.  I suggest you trying and go and visit the Inuits in Alaska, without any clothing (not just modern fibers, but even basic animal skins) all of that is technology.  

          Finally, I would argue that as we've expanded beyond where we came from, our perspective has gotten bigger and better, and so we've advance beyond our initial narrow perspective, and have gotten better in regards to treating everything - look at the concept of law - look at how far thats come since the advent of Western law really began during the reign of Henry the 2nd (modern English law traces its beginning to that point).  We've come to question the idea of classes of people (although it still exists).  in essence, we have improved as a species

          Finally, one last point/question - you are here, at a political site, whose intention is to make a better world, and yet your arguing that humanity doesn't deserve to be saved.  If thats they case, then what are you doing here?  The whole idea of DK, at the end of the day, is the belief that we can be better, and we can do better, but you've taken the attitude that we cannot, so I am wonder, why are you here?

          •  I don't recall saying (0+ / 0-)

            That all uses of technology were evil and should be shunned.  I think you so wanted to believe I said that that you imagined I actually did say that.  Those first two paragraphs of your are irrelevant to the discussion.

            We have not improved as a species.  To improve as a species would require the improvement of the human psyche, which would require the evolution of genes related both to pure intelligence and to the human sense of ethics.  

            What the human race has done is to improve certain aspects of human societies.  The gradual improvement of the English Common Law and its descendent legal systems that you cited are indeed a good example of that.  No one in 12th-century England would have imagined the more civilized and humane legal system we have today.  Yet I could also point to the Patriot Act as an example that our society has not improved.  No one in 12th-century England would have imagined that the central government could possibly be listening to one's private conversations, storing data on one's personal preferences and political affiliations, and putting one's name on secret and malevolent lists.

            In effect, the human species has not improved, but humans have achieved much more of what is possible with the psyche that we have.  Unfortunately, as seen above, this includes both the good and the bad, and through this shows that our species has remained the same.  

            I am indeed here because of my belief in making a better world.  You do not agree with my beliefs and thus you accuse me of being against humanity, that I do not think that humanity can do better.  You slander me with foul lies.  I am a realist and know that humans are humans, and human nature is a constant.  There have been good and bad people for all of recorded history, and it will never change as long as our species remains our species.

            What I do say is that your advocacy for the exploitation of other worlds is morally wrong, given the flawed nature of the human psyche and the woes that inevitably result from it.  I also say that your belief that success justifies itself is egotistical and repugnant, and disturbingly similar to a Nazi or Bolshevik saying that the end justifies the means.

            It is late, I am tired, and I have work tomorrow.

            Good night, and please, if you have not done so, try sleeping under the stars.  You can bring a sleeping bag---what I might call a good use of technology---but leave the tent at home.  It is a good way to realize how small humans really are, and I think you need to have a reminder on that.

            The war for oil is a war for the Beast The War on Terror is a war on peace

            by El Yoss on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 12:38:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You can't have it both ways (0+ / 0-)

              you state that

              There have been good and bad people for all of recorded history, and it will never change as long as our species remains our species.

              and yet, at the same time, you also state

              I am indeed here because of my belief in making a better world.

              In essence, to me at least, you seem to be saying it won't (and frankly can't) get any better, but you are here to make it better - I don't accuse you of being against humanity - I accuse you of being logically inconsistent (and demonstrated your logical inconsistency).  

              Moving back to some of what you said earlier - first, I would point out that evolution happens over a longer time frame than we have records for, so I feel its a little early to say we have all the evidence we need to prove that humanity is set in its ways (and for that matter, we have not sampled a lot of the DNA of humans to know whether we have the gene mutations you feel we need).

              Secondly, you seem to (at least to me) ignore the whole point of nurture - we are not static beings once we come out of our mothers wombs - look at the development of personality during our early years of develop - under good circumstances people like Ghandi, MLK, Nelson Mandella, Al Gore come into existence - under other circumstances, people like Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin, Pol Pot, or Charles Manson come into existence.  Yes, there is some genetic difference, but it isn't all genetics - just look at the reasons for moving more Headstart into earlier years (0-3).

              The point I am trying to make is that humanity and human society isn't simply the collection of human beings, with their destiny determined by the genes they are handed out at birth - it is the interaction, and collective mind that comes from being a social society - I am white, and odds are good I always will be white - but I can read novels like Invisible Man, and at least begin to understand the plight of an African American.  My sister, while not a geek, can read Geeks by Jon Katz, and appreciate the horror that school was for me.  

              I make these points because, you seem to be of the opinion that the only thing we'll get from off-planet resources is by mining other asteroids.  And its not - there will be countless new perspectives offered, such as The Overview effect.  There is access to the unique environment that is zero-g.  How about being on a planet that has 2 moons?  And thats all just within our solar system.  

              In addition, I can point to more concrete resources, that don't extract from a planet, like space based solar power.  

              Which brings me to my next point - I don't agree that the Patriot act proves that we haven't moved beyond what we saw in 12th century England.  What it proves is that we have gone in directions which our forefathers could not predict, and that history does not occur in a straight line.  But then, that is obvious to anyone.  As we've moved forward in history, the idea of law, equality, and fairness entered our collective thoughts, and became interwoven in the fabric of society.  The basis for civil rights emerged, and Justice emerged.  Is it there for everyone to take part in?  Not yet, but the fact that these ideas exists means that society is moving toward something that I consider better.  

              You may view the the human psyche as fundamentally flawed - thats is the beauty of individual thought.  But that doesn't mean that its right.  From where I sit, humanity has improved - not by much and at times there is backslide, but that improvement is there, however much you don't want to see it.  

              BTW, I have to say, I am truly impressed that you threw in the Nazi and Bolshevik reference.

              This brings me my next point

              There have been good and bad people for all of recorded history, and it will never change as long as our species remains our species.

              And you know how species change?  By being introduced to new environments - where on earth will you find new environments?  You assume that exploitation must be advantages to one side, and disadvantages to the other side - but exploitation can be beneficial to one side, and have no impact to the other side, or it can be beneficial to both sides.  Do not confuse exploitation with parasitism - they are not the same thing.

              Finally, you asked me to come and see nature from your perspective - will you do the same?  Will you come into space and see the earth, spread out, full scale?  Will come to the moon, and watch earthrise?  And, if the option presents itself, will you come and see the rest of the universe, beyond that which is found in the forest, around a campfire, and simply sitting under the stars?

              You may feel I need a reminder on how small we are - I think you need a reminder about how big the universe is, and how we don't need to limit our perspective.

    •  How dare we? (0+ / 0-)

      Seems to me that your opinion has precisely the same value as my opinion. No more and no less.

      I believe humanity SHOULD expand out into space.

      We can agree to disagree and politics is how such disagreements get resolved.

      But in the meantime, please drop the "How dare you" nonsense.

      Just as soon as the Ossetia war broke out, Dubya canceled a trip to Atlanta . . .

      by Bill White on Wed Nov 21, 2007 at 08:23:54 AM PDT

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