View Story | 242 comments
Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)
It should be noted that the diarist omitted this part of the Politico article:
An Edwards aide said the text change didn't reflect a shift, and that the first version was meant to present Bush's move as a fait accompli, not to endorse it.
http://www.politico.com/...
Even Ben Smith included that information.
I disagreed with his article, which I thought lacked substance. As to this diary, I ask this question:
Why did the diarist leave out the above, so at least to allow readers to make up their own minds on the matter.
by citizen53 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:13:00 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
So now that it's included I can make up my own mind.
But I don't buy that excuse.
Edwards didn't oppose the Designation until it became Politically expedient for him to do so.
It's as simple as that.
by Edgar08 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:15:52 PM PDT
He said:
He will increase both diplomatic contact with the Iranian government and diplomatic pressure on the Revolutionary Guard to shut down its support of insurgent activity in Iraq and in other areas, such as Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.
The fear is that Bush will use the designation to launch another preemptive strike in the Middle East.
Do you see anything remotely resembling the preemptive war doctrine in his quote?
[pause-waiting for response]
Didn't think so.
Hey, have you heard about that kook fringe Lib site, Daily Kos?
by greee on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:29:02 PM PDT
[pause-waiting for response] Didn't think so.
That's classic. I'll have to use it some time.
He should have expressed the fear you just expressed two months ago.
Not after he figured out he could use it for Political Purposes.
by Edgar08 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:30:57 PM PDT
Do you have a response to my comment, or are you just admitting you did not understand the import of what he said 2 months ago?
by greee on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:32:41 PM PDT
Oppose the Designation two months ago.
by Edgar08 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:35:48 PM PDT
other diplomatic actions, including sanctions, can serve to either put pressure on the Iranian to change or can further entrench the hardliners on both sides of the conflict.
As our actions are practically unilateral, they are entrenching hardliners. Edwards's approach would engage Russia and China in any carrots or sticks, which imo would not encourage the hardliners.
"The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg
by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:02:00 PM PDT
The memo you quote is from 9/7/07.
Kyl-Lieberman was not introduced until 9/20/07. http://www.govtrack.us/...
So much stupidity, so little time.
by greee on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:48:17 PM PDT
Thank you though for coming with facts. Great response. I don't see a conflict here at all.
Mr. Ellinorianne for CA State Senate! (Gary Pritchard ActBlue CA-SD-33)
by Ellinorianne on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:04:42 PM PDT
positions on Iran sanctions. Back in the 2004 Vice Presidential debate, he tried to make Cheney seem soft on Iran:
EDWARDS: The vice president just said that we should focus on state sponsors of terrorism. Iran has moved forward with its nuclear weapons program. They're more dangerous today than they were four years ago. North Korea has moved forward with their nuclear weapons program, gone from one to two nuclear weapons to six to eight nuclear weapons. This vice president has been an advocate for over a decade for lifting sanctions against Iran, the largest state sponsor of terrorism on the planet. It's a mistake. We should not only not lift them, we should strengthen those sanctions.
EDWARDS: The vice president just said that we should focus on state sponsors of terrorism. Iran has moved forward with its nuclear weapons program. They're more dangerous today than they were four years ago.
North Korea has moved forward with their nuclear weapons program, gone from one to two nuclear weapons to six to eight nuclear weapons. This vice president has been an advocate for over a decade for lifting sanctions against Iran, the largest state sponsor of terrorism on the planet.
It's a mistake. We should not only not lift them, we should strengthen those sanctions.
by Partially Impartial on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:29:09 PM PDT
He will also work with multilateral partners to forge a coalition to apply diplomatic and economic pressure to stop Iran's involvement in insurgent and terrorist activity in Iraq.
sounds 100% consistent to me
On Being A John Edwards Democrat
by Redstateresident on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:41:10 PM PDT
Hillary, for example:
As we leave Iraq militarily, I will replace our military force with an intensive diplomatic initiative in the region. The Bush administration has belatedly begun to engage Iran and Syria in talks about the future of Iraq. This is a step in the right direction, but much more must be done. As president, I will convene a regional stabilization group composed of key allies, other global powers, and all the states bordering Iraq. Working with the newly appointed UN special representative for Iraq, the group will be charged with developing and implementing a strategy for achieving a stable Iraq that provides incentives for Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Turkey to stay out of the civil war.
by Partially Impartial on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:48:59 PM PDT
What you said previously was he changed positions
His positions were fully consistent
Your attack was he's CHANGED his position since 2004. You were wrong
So now you've changed to Hillary is no different
There are many things on which they are the same. The problem with Hillary is not necesarrily that she would not talk. Its that she gave the warmongers in charge of our country further power to kill more young American troops or Bomb iranians
Or maybe it is that she doesnt really want to talk
As Richardson Notes today
Senator Clinton seems to believe there are nations out there too "bad" for us to talk to -- I disagree and believe we should talk to both our enemies and our friends
Richardson Defends his Defense
by Redstateresident on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:08:55 PM PDT
in the 2004 VP debate. His implication seemed to be the US acting alone.
by Partially Impartial on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:10:14 PM PDT
that you read into the comment of lets strengthen our sanctions.
Well I cant argue about whats in your own head
by Redstateresident on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:13:10 PM PDT
In the VP debate, Edwards said he wanted to increase sanctions against Iran. Designation the IRG as a terrorist group triggers increased sanctions against them. Edwards now opposes these sanctions because they're an "unprecedented" step, despite clearly believing that Iran sponsors terrorism:
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a dangerous radical and a strong supporter of Hezbollah and Hamas. He has said repeatedly that Israel should be "wiped off the map" and last December sponsored a conference for Holocaust deniers in Tehran. Iran cannot be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.
by Partially Impartial on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:23:13 PM PDT
practically unilateral sanctions are strengthening the hardliners on both sides of this conflict. We've seen how effective the Bush administration is at diplomacy when the hawks want war.
The dispute at hand is whether to allow the Bush administration - who believes in pre-emptive self defense and a whole host of other questionable foreign policies - the ability to escalate a conflict in the hopes that they will find a diplomatic solution.
Let me ask you something: if this is such an effective diplomatic tool, why haven't we done it with North Korea? This is a country the Bush admin is really trying to engage diplomatically because they don't want to send military forces to a completely different part of the world to engage in a military conflict. They simply can't do it, and all parties know that.
by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:34:27 PM PDT
He says we should strengthen sanctions, he still says that, quite clearly.
by Ellinorianne on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:06:00 PM PDT
It applies to almost all of his positions.
Sometimes, a cackle is the best medicine!
by ghost2 on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 09:32:03 AM PDT
Edwards is trying to position himself, and he either changed his strategy or he had a realization of how Bush might use the resolution. Still, and in fairness, Hillary was taken to task for overheard remarks, that were ambiguous, not on what she's written or said in speeches, and she was asked questions that indicated her comments meant she was saying two things, and Edwards might have admitted that he'd once agreed with her position but changed his mind before the vote. One also wonders if he lobbied his senate peers on the resolution or hoped they'd vote the other way and he could stand out. he's a trial lawyer, he's building a case for himself. All in all, if he gets the nomination I'll vote for him, like I'll vote for whichever gets it. He's pretty much out of it now, but still, just in case...
Hillary - Alternative Energy
by anna shane on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:25:13 PM PDT
"It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08
by Salo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:26:25 PM PDT
you must be kidding, he played both the sex and race card, she's not electable, because.. she's ahead among voters?
by anna shane on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:37:37 PM PDT
not because of race or gender (nice baiting by you), but because half the nation just doesn't like her, for a variety of reasons.
This message has not been approved by the corporate media.
by jre2k8 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:48:28 PM PDT
is she ahead in the polls? Why does she have so many endorsements? Where is Dodd in the polls? Why does she poll ahead of everyone else, even the Republicans? You gotta be kidding.
by anna shane on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:03:25 PM PDT
The name Clinton perhaps? The fact that less than a third of Democrats even KNOW that their recent VP candidate is running, while 95 percent know that Hillary is running?
by jre2k8 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:23:19 PM PDT
interesting. Do you have a link demonstrating that claim that a third of democrats don't know he's running? I've scratched my head as to why Clinton's poll numbers are so high and simply can't figure it out.
by Philoguy on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 07:59:21 PM PDT
here's the link. That's an extremely interesting piece of information.
by Philoguy on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:01:12 PM PDT
There are polls indicating that the Public cannot even name him.
by Salo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:01:39 PM PDT
here's the link!
by Philoguy on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:02:03 PM PDT
by Salo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:03:17 PM PDT
chooses the Democratic nominee, and not the half of the nation that consistently has shown the last six months five to 10 points ahead of every Republican.
Guess what. Kossacks continue to be very rude. I am for Obama, but I'm not a Kossack.
by DCDemocrat on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:08:45 PM PDT
"any" Republican. She'll be running against a specific Republican who will come off better than her.
And she's not beating the GOP contenders, if she's even beating them, as much as Obama, and not nearly as much as Edwards. She's our weakest candidate head to head.
by jre2k8 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:22:06 PM PDT
I don't think you people read your own press about the Clinton machine. I can assure you the Republican she runs against will not come off better than her.
by DCDemocrat on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 06:02:46 AM PDT
Really? Who are Obama's and Edwards's most natural constituency?
Democrats.
Obama stuck at 25. Edwards stuck at 14. Their approval ratings both far less than Hillary's among Democrats.
You know not of what you speak.
by DCDemocrat on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 06:04:27 AM PDT
no one has voted.
by Salo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:56:33 PM PDT
then we'll find out for sure, I'm for whoever wins, and we won't know that until the primaries.
by anna shane on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:03:57 PM PDT
a nitivist sentiment that that will overwhelm the party.
Are you even living in the US?
by Salo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:02:56 PM PDT
Diametrically incorrect. The Nashua Telegraph ed borad editorialized on Russert's and Dodd's misinterpretation of their Clinton interview ... and furnished the interview tape to back it up.
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/...
http://www.youtube.com/...
The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence
by RonK Seattle on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:27:54 PM PDT
Hillary mauy have lost US the election with that stupid amateur display of ineptitude.
by Salo on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 07:55:39 PM PDT
to vote against the resolution. I trust that John will do what's right, but we all must be mindful that politicians sometimes present things that work to their advantage. Nobody's pure, so let's not be naive. He may not have had time to think it through; so what. Now he has and he's right.
by santamonicadem on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:07:37 PM PDT
The original text was 9/7 and says he thinks the designation should be more than rhetoric, but lead to results. Hardly disapproving. And now, he disapproves strongly that Kyl-Lieberman recommended this designation.
Surely, he could have said in the first version that he opposed the designation, if such were the case. If it went without saying, then what was the reason to change the text later on?
on strike.
by daria g on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:31:21 PM PDT
and therefore slanted your argument while depriving the objective person a chance to make up his/her own mind. Why?
Clearly, your slant would interpret his explanation for your purposes, yet you were not even fair enough in your presentation to include it.
Here is the total passage:
Pressure Iran to stop supporting insurgents in Iraq. Iran is one of the most dangerous countries in the world, actively supporting terrorist and insurgent activity not only in Iraq but in other areas, such as Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. Our policy must aim to stamp out state-sponsored terrorism targeting Israel, our strongest ally in the region. Iran’s Revolutionary Guard will soon be deemed a terrorist organization by the U.S. As president, Edwards will ensure that such steps are not just more rhetoric, but actually lead to results. He will increase both diplomatic contact with the Iranian government and diplomatic pressure on the Revolutionary Guard to shut down its support of insurgent activity in Iraq and in other areas, such as Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. He will also work with multilateral partners to forge a coalition to apply diplomatic and economic pressure to stop Iran’s involvement in insurgent and terrorist activity in Iraq.
http://www.talkleft.com/...
How do you know that such steps refer to IRG and not the aim to stamp out state-sponsored terrorism?
How do you know that he did not mean that the action on the IRG designation was just rhetorical and would not lead the results he had mentioned?
These are more consistent interpretations than yours, in my opinion.
by citizen53 on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:54:04 PM PDT
I read this paragraph the same way, actually - in the first place, Edwards thought designating the IRG as a terrorist organization was a diplomatic move to pressure the Iranian government, and expected it to produce important results - shutting down their support of insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East.
I agree with that - that's what it does. Those are the results Edwards expects from the designation, in September.
So why did they change the text later on, and start saying he does not support the policy and that this designation is a move toward war?
by daria g on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 07:32:51 PM PDT
see response to you in a number of different places in the thread.
The question is are the sanctions being put into place going to force a diplomatic solution or push the parties forward until the use of force is unavoidable.
This current admin has proven time and again that it is not multilateralist in nature. What that does in this context of sanctions is re-enforce the hardliners in the conflict by furthering an "us vs them" dynamic.
If you read the totality of where Edwards is coming from with regard to Iran, his approach is multilateral - a multilateral approach removes the "us vs them" dynamic in a conflict and helps push the parties toward a more diplomatic resolution.
What is at stake is this: do you allow the Bush administration, which has consistently used a hawkish, unilateralist approach in almost any conflict that they wanted to escalate toward a use of force the ability to escalate this confict? Do you reasonably assume that somehow they will magically change from being hawkish and unilateralist to diplomatic and multilateralist?
That is the issue.
by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 07:51:25 PM PDT
with regard to Iran (culling this from his article in Foreign Affairs and other remarks made in different speeches, including his website here: http://www.johnedwards.com/... ), when Edwards says "meaningful" in this context he means the engagement of Russia and China, as practically unilateral steps - including sanctions - entrench the hardliners on both sides of this conflict. Even in the brief excerpt you gave there is a reference to working "...with multilateral partners to forge a coalition to apply diplomatic and economic pressure to stop Iran’s involvement in insurgent and terrorist activity in Iraq."
From reading his speeches and articles, it is apparent to me that Edwards truly believes in a "concert of nations" approach. This is not what K-L does - it leaves the question of engaging in multilateralism up to an administration that has traditionally not been able - or in some cases willing - to go there.
by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:58:03 PM PDT
Actually it's more than just designating the ING as terroists, although I think that could be used as a prelude to war. I think he may not have thought that thru, which some will criticize, but I'm not certain it's a change of mind, or position, but a clarification of the facts on the ground.
by santamonicadem on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:13:29 PM PDT
Iran’s Revolutionary Guard will soon be deemed a terrorist organization by the U.S. As president,
Future tense ^, which he had no control over.
Congress recently passed a bill to declare Iran's Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization.
Past tense ^, which he had no control over.
Edwards Democrats ActBlue
by LaEscapee on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:23:51 PM PDT
Over changing the text. It was done for a reason other than what you claim. There's a date stamp on it; other policy papers and statements aren't reedited to change tenses or meanings after the events in question take place. That is not done.
by daria g on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:23:55 PM PDT
"rhetoric" is NOT going to lead to "results" -- but diplomacy -- as Edwards goes on to emphasize in the next two sentences -- will.
You are basing an allegation that Edwards supported Kyl-Lieberman and/or a preemptive military attack on Iran two months ago on your own assumptions about an awkward phrase (a phrase you didn't understand), and your own assumptions that are contradicted by the rest of the very same text.
As far as why edit it? The text was out of date: "Iran’s Revolutionary Guard will soon be deemed...." -- the vote had already happened. the web sites are all updated all the time.
by jennifer poole on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:27:28 PM PDT
None of the Democratic candidates support or have supported a preemptive attack on Iran. Show me where I said Edwards supported that.
Kyl-Lieberman recommends the designation of the IRG as a terrorist organization.
In September, Edwards' policy showed no sign of disapproval, and said it was a step that must be followed up with diplomacy.
Now, the text says that Edwards opposes this on grounds that it's a step to war.
And no, if you are in public life or running for public office, you don't go back and change sentences in a statement of policy to change your position because the events in question have changed. That's Bush level right there. That's why there's a date indicating when the plan was released. Should Edwards go back and change sentences in his cheerleading for the Iraq war because the facts on the ground have changed since then?
by daria g on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 10:11:22 PM PDT
wide narrow
View Story | 242 comments