Daily Kos

View Story | 242 comments

  •  In fairness... (25+ / 0-)

    It should be noted that the diarist omitted this part of the Politico article:

    An Edwards aide said the text change didn't reflect a shift, and that the first version was meant to present Bush's move as a fait accompli, not to endorse it.

    http://www.politico.com/...

    Even Ben Smith included that information.

    I disagreed with his article, which I thought lacked substance.  As to this diary, I ask this question:

    Why did the diarist leave out the above, so at least to allow readers to make up their own minds on the matter.

    •  Good Point (10+ / 0-)

      So now that it's included I can make up my own mind.

      But I don't buy that excuse.

      Edwards didn't oppose the Designation until it became Politically expedient for him to do so.

      It's as simple as that.

      •  Clear the fog from your head (6+ / 0-)

        He said:

        He will increase both diplomatic contact with the Iranian government and diplomatic pressure on the Revolutionary Guard to shut down its support of insurgent activity in Iraq and in other areas, such as Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.

        The fear is that Bush will use the designation to launch another preemptive strike in the Middle East.

        Do you see anything remotely resembling the preemptive war doctrine in his quote?

        [pause-waiting for response]

        Didn't think so.

        Hey, have you heard about that kook fringe Lib site, Daily Kos?

        by greee on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:29:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It wouldn't be the first time he's switched (9+ / 0-)

        positions on Iran sanctions.  Back in the 2004 Vice Presidential debate, he tried to make Cheney seem soft on Iran:

        EDWARDS: The vice president just said that we should focus on state sponsors of terrorism. Iran has moved forward with its nuclear weapons program. They're more dangerous today than they were four years ago.

        North Korea has moved forward with their nuclear weapons program, gone from one to two nuclear weapons to six to eight nuclear weapons. This vice president has been an advocate for over a decade for lifting sanctions against Iran, the largest state sponsor of terrorism on the planet.

        It's a mistake. We should not only not lift them, we should strengthen those sanctions.

        •  Thanks for playing but (4+ / 0-)

          He will also work with multilateral partners to forge a coalition to apply diplomatic and economic pressure to stop Iran's involvement in insurgent and terrorist activity in Iraq.

          sounds 100% consistent to me

          1. strengthen the sanctions
          1.  have others participate with economic pressure
          •  All of the candidates say that (4+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            daria g, DCDemocrat, oysterface, cpresley

            Hillary, for example:

            As we leave Iraq militarily, I will replace our military force with an intensive diplomatic initiative in the region. The Bush administration has belatedly begun to engage Iran and Syria in talks about the future of Iraq. This is a step in the right direction, but much more must be done. As president, I will convene a regional stabilization group composed of key allies, other global powers, and all the states bordering Iraq. Working with the newly appointed UN special representative for Iraq, the group will be charged with developing and implementing a strategy for achieving a stable Iraq that provides incentives for Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Turkey to stay out of the civil war.

            •  Fine thats what she says here (2+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Ellinorianne, wmacdona66

              What you said previously was he changed positions

              His positions were fully consistent

              Your attack was he's CHANGED his position since 2004.  You were wrong

              So now you've changed to
              Hillary is no different

              There are many things on which they are the same.  The problem with Hillary is not necesarrily that she would not talk.  Its that she gave the warmongers in charge of our country further power to kill more young American troops or Bomb iranians

              Or maybe it is that she doesnt really want to talk

              As Richardson Notes today

              Senator Clinton seems to believe there are nations out there too "bad" for us to talk to -- I disagree and believe we should talk to both our enemies and our friends

              Richardson Defends his Defense

              •  He never said anything about multilateralism (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                cpresley

                in the 2004 VP debate.  His implication seemed to be the US acting alone.

                •  ahh so its the unstated "implications" (0+ / 0-)

                  that you read into the comment of lets strengthen our sanctions.  

                  Well I cant argue about whats in your own head

                  •  I'll break it down for you. (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    daria g, cpresley

                    In the VP debate, Edwards said he wanted to increase sanctions against Iran.  Designation the IRG as a terrorist group triggers increased sanctions against them.  Edwards now opposes these sanctions because they're an "unprecedented" step, despite clearly believing that Iran sponsors terrorism:

                    President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a dangerous radical and a strong supporter of Hezbollah and Hamas. He has said repeatedly that Israel should be "wiped off the map" and last December sponsored a conference for Holocaust deniers in Tehran. Iran cannot be allowed to possess nuclear weapons.

                    •  Let me break it down further... (2+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      Salo, America08

                      practically unilateral sanctions are strengthening the hardliners on both sides of this conflict. We've seen how effective the Bush administration is at diplomacy when the hawks want war.

                      The dispute at hand is whether to allow the Bush administration - who believes in pre-emptive self defense and a whole host of other questionable foreign policies - the ability to escalate a conflict in the hopes that they will find a diplomatic solution.

                      Let me ask you something: if this is such an effective diplomatic tool, why haven't we done it with North Korea? This is a country the Bush admin is really trying to engage diplomatically because they don't want to send military forces to a completely different part of the world to engage in a military conflict. They simply can't do it, and all parties know that.

                      "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

                      by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 06:34:27 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

        •  What? (0+ / 0-)

          He says we should strengthen sanctions, he still says that, quite clearly.  

          Mr. Ellinorianne for CA State Senate! (Gary Pritchard ActBlue CA-SD-33)

          by Ellinorianne on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 08:06:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  just copyright that. (0+ / 0-)

        Edwards didn't oppose the Designation until it became Politically expedient for him to do so.

        It applies to almost all of his positions.

        Sometimes, a cackle is the best medicine!

        by ghost2 on Tue Nov 06, 2007 at 09:32:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  and is is is? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      cpresley

      Edwards is trying to position himself, and he either changed his strategy or he had a realization of how Bush might use the resolution.  Still, and in fairness, Hillary was taken to task for overheard remarks, that were ambiguous, not on what she's written or said in speeches, and she was asked questions that indicated her comments meant she was saying two things, and Edwards might have admitted that he'd once agreed with her position but changed his mind before the vote.  One also wonders if he lobbied his senate peers on the resolution or hoped they'd vote the other way and he could stand out.  he's a trial lawyer, he's building a case for himself.  All in all, if he gets the nomination I'll vote for him, like I'll vote for whichever gets it. He's pretty  much out of it now, but still, just in case...

      Hillary - Alternative Energy

      by anna shane on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:25:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  That quote doesn't make sense to me. (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      phoenixdreamz

      The original text was 9/7 and says he thinks the designation should be more than rhetoric, but lead to results.  Hardly disapproving.  And now, he disapproves strongly that Kyl-Lieberman recommended this designation.  

      Surely, he could have said in the first version that he opposed the designation, if such were the case.  If it went without saying, then what was the reason to change the text later on?

      •  The fact is that you OMITTED it... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        America08

        and therefore slanted your argument while depriving the objective person a chance to make up his/her own mind.  Why?

        Clearly, your slant would interpret his explanation for your purposes, yet you were not even fair enough in your presentation to include it.

        Here is the total passage:

        Pressure Iran to stop supporting insurgents in Iraq. Iran is one of the most dangerous countries in the world, actively supporting terrorist and insurgent activity not only in Iraq but in other areas, such as Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. Our policy must aim to stamp out state-sponsored terrorism targeting Israel, our strongest ally in the region. Iran’s Revolutionary Guard will soon be deemed a terrorist organization by the U.S.  As president, Edwards will ensure that such steps are not just more rhetoric, but actually lead to results. He will increase both diplomatic contact with the Iranian government and diplomatic pressure on the Revolutionary Guard to shut down its support of insurgent activity in Iraq and in other areas, such as Lebanon and the Palestinian territories. He will also work with multilateral partners to forge a coalition to apply diplomatic and economic pressure to stop Iran’s involvement in insurgent and terrorist activity in Iraq.

        http://www.talkleft.com/...

        How do you know that such steps refer to IRG and not  the aim to stamp out state-sponsored terrorism?

        How do you know that he did not mean that the action on the IRG designation was just rhetorical and would not lead the results he had mentioned?

        These are more consistent interpretations than yours, in my opinion.

        •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

          I read this paragraph the same way, actually - in the first place, Edwards thought designating the IRG as a terrorist organization was a diplomatic move to pressure the Iranian government, and expected it to produce important results - shutting down their support of insurgents in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East.

          I agree with that - that's what it does.  Those are the results Edwards expects from the designation, in September.

          So why did they change the text later on, and start saying he does not support the policy and that this designation is a move toward war?

          •  Multilateralism vs unilateralism (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Chaoslillith, Ellinorianne

            see response to you in a number of different places in the thread.

            The question is are the sanctions being put into place going to force a diplomatic solution or push the parties forward until the use of force is unavoidable.

            This current admin has proven time and again that it is not multilateralist in nature. What that does in this context of sanctions is re-enforce the hardliners in the conflict by furthering an "us vs them" dynamic.

            If you read the totality of where Edwards is coming from with regard to Iran, his approach is multilateral - a multilateral approach removes the "us vs them" dynamic in a conflict and helps push the parties toward a more diplomatic resolution.

            What is at stake is this: do you allow the Bush administration, which has consistently used a hawkish, unilateralist approach in almost any conflict that they wanted to escalate toward a use of force the ability to escalate this confict? Do you reasonably assume that somehow they will magically change from being hawkish and unilateralist to diplomatic and multilateralist?

            That is the issue.

            "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

            by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 07:51:25 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  If you look at the totality of Edwards's position (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        America08, Ellinorianne

        with regard to Iran (culling this from his article in Foreign Affairs and other remarks made in different speeches, including his website here: http://www.johnedwards.com/... ), when Edwards says "meaningful" in this context he means the engagement of Russia and China, as practically unilateral steps - including sanctions - entrench the hardliners on both sides of this conflict. Even in the brief excerpt you gave there is a reference to working "...with multilateral partners to forge a coalition to apply diplomatic and economic pressure to stop Iran’s involvement in insurgent and terrorist activity in Iraq."

        From reading his speeches and articles, it is apparent to me that Edwards truly believes in a "concert of nations" approach. This is not what K-L does - it leaves the question of engaging in multilateralism up to an administration that has traditionally not been able - or in some cases willing - to go there.

        "The revolution's just an ethical haircut away..." Billy Bragg

        by grannyhelen on Mon Nov 05, 2007 at 05:58:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Good point. K-L is not the same thing. (0+ / 0-)

        Actually it's more than just designating the ING as terroists, although I think that could be used as a prelude to war.  I think he may not have thought that thru, which some will criticize, but I'm not certain it's a change of mind, or position, but a clarification of the facts on the ground.

      •  I'm calling BULLSHIT (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grannyhelen, America08

        Iran’s Revolutionary Guard will soon be deemed a terrorist organization by the U.S.  As president,

        Future tense ^, which he had no control over.

        Congress recently passed a bill to declare Iran's Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization.

        Past tense ^, which he had no control over.

        •  He certainly had control (0+ / 0-)

          Over changing the text.  It was done for a reason other than what you claim.  There's a date stamp on it; other policy papers and statements aren't reedited to change tenses or meanings after the events in question take place.  That is not done.

      •  No it IS disapproving. More saber-rattling (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        grannyhelen

        "rhetoric" is NOT going to lead to "results" -- but diplomacy -- as Edwards goes on to emphasize in the next two sentences -- will.

        You are basing an allegation that Edwards supported Kyl-Lieberman and/or a preemptive military attack on Iran two months ago on your own assumptions about an awkward phrase (a phrase you didn't understand), and your own assumptions that are contradicted by the rest of the very same text.

        As far as why edit it? The text was out of date: "Iran’s Revolutionary Guard will soon be deemed...." -- the vote had already happened. the web sites are all updated all the time.
         

        •  That is not what I said at all. (0+ / 0-)

          None of the Democratic candidates support or have supported a preemptive attack on Iran.  Show me where I said Edwards supported that.  

          Kyl-Lieberman recommends the designation of the IRG as a terrorist organization.

          In September, Edwards' policy showed no sign of disapproval, and said it was a step that must be followed up with diplomacy.

          Now, the text says that Edwards opposes this on grounds that it's a step to war.

          And no, if you are in public life or running for public office, you don't go back and change sentences in a statement of policy to change your position because the events in question have changed.  That's Bush level right there.  That's why there's a date indicating when the plan was released.  Should Edwards go back and change sentences in his cheerleading for the Iraq war because the facts on the ground have changed since then?

View Story | 242 comments