View Story | 27 comments
Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)
for a fact except what we "know" in real life - and even then, there is some serious debate on that.
Look, it doesn't feel good to suspect that any new member here may be trying to jerk people around. I mean that literally, it doesn't feel good.
i don't see this diarist as "jerking people around" by expressing disturbing images of the war and of the effects on soldiers who have been there. i've talked to many of them - i live in a military town. i see these kids come back. there is no "ulterior motive" to talking about one's experiences. it isn't about "us" - it is about the experience. how we react is our own "baggage".
I don't know how other people feel when they think they're looking at some seriously dishonest engagement of this community, but I literally tense up like a hyper-vigilant guard dog and stay that way until I figure out what's bugging me.
the normal response to pain is to protect one's self - the pain described in these diaries is palpable - something no person should have to willingly subject themselve to experiencing. what disturbs me about the community here is that somehow that "pain" is considered an infringement on THEIR rights to live in a comfort zone free of emotional reation to such injury. the anger at the diarist for exposing posters to such disturbing images is what i find inexplicable. do we scream FRAUD! because we don't want to believe these situations exist? because we don't want to believe THIS diarist experienced them?
what if we are wrong in our accusations? has ANYONE considered the additional and damage that our hostility further inflicts on him?
Now, I've gotten pretty good at setting myself to take a few body blows while I suss the situation out. It's more delicate, respectful and effective. There's always an escape hatch built into my approach, for them and me. If at any point it becomes clear that my instincts are totally fouled up, they've got a chance to tell me so and I've got a chance to say I've made a mistake. The fact that that new member may have been in the military should no more color your assessment than if anyone else came through here reminding civilians to, "Send flags signed by school children in your home town," to our troops.
Now, I've gotten pretty good at setting myself to take a few body blows while I suss the situation out. It's more delicate, respectful and effective. There's always an escape hatch built into my approach, for them and me. If at any point it becomes clear that my instincts are totally fouled up, they've got a chance to tell me so and I've got a chance to say I've made a mistake.
The fact that that new member may have been in the military should no more color your assessment than if anyone else came through here reminding civilians to, "Send flags signed by school children in your home town," to our troops.
we assess situations based on our own experiences and those of our families and friends. i doubt that any here share these experiences unless they have been in this war zone or one similar (although i know of no other except for viet nam that can compare). so, is the alternative to "being there" simply to reject any situation that makes us painfully uncomfortable as one that cannot be true?
That, my friend, is propaganda. Whether it was unintentional or deliberately planted amid stark imagery like "skeletal mush" is immaterial. Had anyone other than a presumably wounded soldier said it, the vast majority of people here would have promptly called it out as straight-up bullshit rhetoric.
i'm sorry, i missed that reference, could you link it for me?
I think you wanted to like this guy because Democrats and liberals are supposedly hostile to troops. I also think that's why you're taking this so personally. I believe you think we skeptics played into a stereotype that maligns Democrats and liberals.
this is an assumption that is disturbing. you imply that my reaction was based SOLELY on my political affiliation? this has nothing to do with political parties. it has everything to do with accepting the realities of a war that i have seen firsthand and close up - i've seen the troubled faces, blank eyes, deeply hurting kids returning to half-lives instead of vibrant full ones. it makes no difference to me whether they or i am associated with a liberal, democrat, republican or ANY party - i see us all as simply human beings caught up in the greatest tragedy of our time.
Well, I'll tell you something. If I hadn't spotted some serious discrepancies and glaring omissions in the guy's story, I'd have let him continue to feed this community bullshit because it falls under the category of stuff-I-disagree-with, rather than stuff-I-know-to-be-dishonest.
i choose to read diaries with the greater whole rather than looking for those "discrepancies and glaring omissions" of which you speak. perhaps to you, they were glaring - but to those of us who chose to discuss the greater issues brought forth by the diary, they were not. by the constant clarion call of the disbelievers, the conversations have derailed into a massive train wreck that makes this community far weaker than whether this diarist used literary license or used his own psyche in a war zone to try to communicate with what has been touted as the "leading progressive blog" on the net. it this is true, then progressivism is in real trouble.
returning to one of your statements,
let me leave you with one last thought to ponder:
when we put all of our energies into "protecting this site" - what becomes more important? our own "identities" or the causes we are supposed to be championing?
draftgore2008 and northington 08 DE-AL
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 12:29:08 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
... but your "thought to ponder" brought these thoughts to my mind in reply:
when we put all of our energies into "protecting this site"...
There must be a balance as in all things, which is not always displayed in what actually goes on around here. And in which direction the imbalance lies depends on our personal viewpoints and priorities, but I don't think as a whole the community is putting all their energies to the preservation of the site.
...what becomes more important? our own "identities" or the causes we are supposed to be championing?
This site and community is growing to become a valuable tool in fighting for the causes we champion. I hope people see the difference between keeping the validity of our discourse in the realm of reality in the name of keeping the site effective for that purpose, and protecting their individual identities...
Misled Into War: A Timeline/DowningStreetMemo.com
by highacidity on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 12:48:01 PM PDT
websites have already run with how badly this poster was treated here.
can you imagine how much damage to this site will be when some of those comments by the "truth squad" get replayed?
i've been to adam's myspace page - i see nothing that discredits anything he has written... those who would discredit him did so on the basis of "feelings" and "prior hoaxes" and his writing style.
just as the republican "truth squad" has been assaulting the senate with distortions and lies based on THEIR perception of the truth, so could the accusations and statements here be so construed.
we need to not let our own perception of "truth" color the way we approach reality and fact. to do that discredits this site far more than how people here choose to interpret the words of another.
the "buffy" incident is a perfect example. someone wanted to leave the site - wrote heartfelt comments that were misinterpreted as a "suicide note". the poor woman must have been horrified to have the police show up at her door to "check" on her - to have people chasing her down. imagine being labeled by an entire online community as being suicidal, having that spilled over into your real life, then having everyone on that communty get angry at YOU for THEIR misperception.
the anger directed at adam here is unbelieveable - it is a carryover from all those times when people here allowed themselves to believe the stories made from their own coloration - and it is happening again - only this time, the site chose to kick a veteran in the teeth - some welcome home, right?
perhaps this is how the folks started the "spitting on veterans" incidents in the sixties. the veterans represented something to be feared and abhored - a violent war that had no end - so the vets were targeted.
i don't see much difference then in now and here. what we have done on this site is reprehensible.
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:12:25 PM PDT
However things fall out in the end, there are things said that will never reflect well on the community.
Oh, to correct something in your earlier comment, it was "Pastor John" not Pastor Dan who was the earlier banned user... don't want to get that one started... oh lordy...
by highacidity on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:28:30 PM PDT
pastor john (SORRY! pastor dan!)
i LIKE pastordan - and his little dog, too!
with the community, as with life, changes happen. i am very disturbed with the direction i've seen here in the last while. perhaps this is my cathartic moment as well.
thank you and kimberley, too, for being brave enough to leap into this conversation. i really appreciate your responses and kimberley's, too.
this is the type of dialogue i USED to enjoy here - reasoned intelligent discussion - respect - serious discussion and debate of viewpoint.
thank you for reminding me why i originally came here. it is just a pity that adam never encountered this.
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:48:00 PM PDT
... from you, thanks. I appreciate the discussion as well. Like all the rest of the world, this place is cyclical... the tenor of discourse here will most likey move back to substantive.. I hope ;-)
I am really curious how the new version of the site will operate... some of the issues around here can be addressed with structural change in the mechanics, but of course that doesn't affect the input of real people...
Peace.
by highacidity on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:56:44 PM PDT
oh! dear! we are into a mutual admiration society here - guess i'm going to have to make that next sfkossacks meeting to bow to you in person!
just look for that 6'2" norweigan guy and it'll be "me"... heh heh heh
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 02:06:33 PM PDT
... I am only 5-feet even. I don't want to be responsible for sending you to the hospital.
Let's agree to have a drink of whatever and toast...
by highacidity on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 03:33:55 PM PDT
before you become afraid....
looking forward to meeting you... are you in s.f. proper?
if so, email me - i'm in town frequently.
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 03:47:48 PM PDT
the anger directed at adam here is unbelieveable - it is a carryover from all those times when people here allowed themselves to believe the stories made from their own coloration - and it is happening again - only this time, the site chose to kick a veteran in the teeth - some welcome home, right? perhaps this is how the folks started the "spitting on veterans" incidents in the sixties. the veterans represented something to be feared and abhored - a violent war that had no end - so the vets were targeted. i don't see much difference then in now and here. what we have done on this site is reprehensible.
So what do we call it when veterans all over the internet and the real world call innumerable Johnny GI's out for being full of shit and give 'em the kiss off? Are they reprehensible too?
Look even if someone pretends to have earned a Purple Heart when he or she didn't, it's a federal offense. Even legitimate troops that pretend to be things they aren't around combat veterans could find themselves with a mouthful of broken teeth for their efforts. Combat veterans don't wait for the results of an extensive background check before getting into barroom fights over shit like this. There's a reason for that. It's offensive to have people play fast and loose with the truth.
The dramatic wrap up you're giving this may seem like an act of nobility but it's misplaced.
Time flies, whether you're having fun or not.
by Kimberley on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:49:23 PM PDT
"proof" of the illegitimacy of adam other than the unsubstantiated allegations of people on this site. there is no "fraud" if he is real... but there is damage.
there is nothing wrong with being sceptical - take that scepticism and research it before making public accusations... or simply walk away. those are the only two options that anyone here should implement.
i can tell you that i am a 6'2 male of norweigan descent and you have absolutely NO proof otherwise unless you do your homework. you might choose to disbelieve me and discredit my statement based on other statements i've made on that site - that is critical thinking and application of prior statements that impeach my norweigan heritage. but, there is absolutely no way you can be sure unless you do the research or meet me in real life.
this is my point here. we do not have evidence of adam being anything other than what he says on this site. equating this to someone who claims a purple heart only escalates the existing problem by adding a layer of fraud that is not applicable here. did adam claim to have a purple heart? if not, then the analogy is emotionally evocative but inapplicable and prejudicial.
we have lost our way when it comes to critical thinking on this site. that is my point. that is our loss.
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 02:02:52 PM PDT
that we've lost our collective ability to reason here. But that's a matter of opinion.
I don't want to keep tangling with you, over this or anything else.
by Kimberley on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 02:22:38 PM PDT
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 02:29:16 PM PDT
Edrie, My back arched the minute I read his first diary. I still haven't figured out what, precisely, rubbed me the wrong about his that diary. In spite of it, and giving him the benefit of doubt, my first comment to him was a welcoming one. Lo and behold, he didn't want to be welcomed and he wasn't interested in acknowledging a potentially useful resource for soldiers returning from Iraq or Afghanistan.
Strike two. That put me into wait-and-see mode.
Other people balked on his third diary, without any prompting from this skeptic, and then the guy got too cute by half in, "What the hecks a troll lol and why so much hostility about punctuation?"
I read through it and noted so many glaring problems with his story that I finally went into guard mode. Contrary to what you think, I do know enough to make that decision. Jesus, even then I was as delicate and respectful as I know how to be. I didn't paint the guy into a corner that neither of us could get out of.
Now, you wanted to drift along with the bigger picture he was painting. Fine. But there were red flags, verifiable ones. So don't get pissed and disappointed when other people spot them.
Looks like we're an an impasse with this, and that's fine. I respect you enough to offer an explanation for what I've done in this community we share. I owe you that. But I stand by what I've done and I'll do it again if I feel the situation warrants it.
by Kimberley on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:06:52 PM PDT
responses here - a chance to talk out what happened in the last few days...
a couple of thoughts here...
My back arched the minute I read his first diary. I still haven't figured out what, precisely, rubbed me the wrong about his that diary. In spite of it, and giving him the benefit of doubt, my first comment to him was a welcoming one. Lo and behold, he didn't want to be welcomed and he wasn't interested in acknowledging a potentially useful resource for soldiers returning from Iraq or Afghanistan.
i'm guessing it was the writing style - it was dissonant - then add the topic, no one wants to believe what was written - it was horrible - it is easier to dismiss it as too horrible to be true. as for accepting "help" in resources - some of the soldiers i've met aren't looking for "help" - they are looking to talk. being seen as needing "help" signifies weakness and the very nature of the military and a war zone implies weakness can be fatal. look to some of our own treasured posters here who have spoken of how hard it was to acknowledge ptsd until YEARS later. to ask someone who is fresh returned from these experiences to leap to offers of help is not realistic.
nothing wrong with that - it is the cautious and appropriate approach to any situation - assess and gain more information. unfortunately, on this site, that information seems to come from the opinions and responses of other posters - not the most reliable of sources, imho.
i'm not surprised that many people held the same reservations that you did. who would want to believe that this is real. i would prefer it not be as well.
as for the "lol" at what's a troll - that is easily explained. he just joined. unless you (and me, too) live on this site - have gone through the troll wars, spent time on message boards, this isn't something that is obvious to the general population. if the guy isn't a blogger of intense proportions (and, after all, he said he recently returned from iraq - so i'm guessing he hasn't had much blogging time online from ramadi), how would he know of this site's history of trolldom?
WE bring with US that knowledge, but to expect a newbie to know the ropes is unfair, unrealistic and absurd. we forget that the world didn't begin with this site and will continue without it when it's gone.
kimberley, nothing wrong with going into guard mode - it is what you do AFTER that mode is entered. you did nothing that i saw that was egregious. you were sceptical. scepticism in this world is a good thing - it's called the scientific method in some circles. you weren't disrespectful. you weren't the problem.
the bigger picture is the most important one here, imho - not the trees, but the forest. i see the trees as well, but i choose to see the whole - not the parts - and assess the value of the whole.
i started to say i wasn't pissed, but that would be a lie - but i'm pissed for a reason different that what you assume. i am pissed because i see what had been a viable, vibrant political site lapsing into something ugly and vile - something i am not sure i care to be associated with. i am pissed that i am losing a bully pulpit for politics due to the bullying of a very few people in this community... people who hold no respect over other equal members here. this is not you. this is not highacidity. those to which i refer are those who deliberately hijack threads to inane discussions that lapse into "i am right! and you are an ass!" diatribes.
i am pissed. and i am disappointed. and... i am at that precipice that now, only i can decide. do i stay or do i leave this place to those who see it as their private playground: no outsiders welcome.
i haven't decided yet. i am giving this decision serious consideration.
actually, we aren't as much at an impasse as you would think. but, then, you were never the problem.
peace and my respect goes to you, as well.
by edrie on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:31:54 PM PDT
I do.
I hope you'll stick around. I like you and I like having you here.
by Kimberley on Fri Feb 09, 2007 at 01:52:27 PM PDT
wide narrow
View Story | 27 comments