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  •  Is anyone actually suggesting... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Subversive, jj32, godislove, leonard145b

    ...that a person not consider Obama for the reasons you state?

      •  As have I. (8+ / 0-)

        And a very intelligent friend of mine made the argument  in conversation.

        Sometimes it's only part of a larger picture as to why they support someone else-- but I don't think it should in the picture at all.

        And let me just reiterate that I don't think it's inherently racist to support someone other than Obama, nor do I think racism is motivating large numbers of people to support someone else.

        But this issue has come up on occasion and it troubled me enough that I wanted to address it.

        •  well there are (2+ / 0-)

          2 parts to the thought process. In part 1, you can think that America is not ready to elect a black man, woman, atheist, gay person, non-human, what have you. That's a fairly neutral statement which might or might not be true. In part 2, you say you won't support this supposedly "unelectable" person because they won't be elected. THIS is the problematic part. There are some years when the writing was on the wall that some candidate for president or another wouldn't get elected (Mondale, Duakakis etc.) Would you vote for their opponent because that person would get elected? There are lots of times when people vote for someone who they know won't win because they support their platform or just like them.

          Also, I hate to sound so cynical, but because 1 vote or a small group of votes doesn't usually change the outcome of a large election, voting for Obama (or Hillary or Kucinich) even if you think them "unelectable" isn't likely to cause them to win all by itself. So you really have to assess the motivations of someone who is calculating that way.

          Now it is true that in "unelectability" in and of itself can make a candidate unattractive (Chuck Pennochio), and that's a legitimate feeling, but that's different. I think what you're talking about is a situation where you genuinely like a candidate, but feel you can't vote for them because of some sort of electability calculus.

          Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

          by JMS on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:09:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I picked 'yes' above (4+ / 0-)

        Because I've had this arguments used against my personal voting choices -- recall MD-Sen.

        I have no intention of calling anyone out personally. But one of the arguments presented repeatedly here was that Cardin was a better bet because Mfume would alienate more conservative white Dem voters in MD.

        I'll give you an example from a diary:

        Mfume has allegations of favoratism and sexual harassment hovering over him from when he was head of the NAACP. This, coupled with the fact that he had five kids out of wedlock (which, by itself, isn't an issue, since he had his kids before he married) will be used against Mfume by the Steele campaign in a narrative. The result will be that many moderate suburbanites in places like Baltimore County and Anne Arundel County (who split tickets) will perceive Mfume (wrongly so, of course) as a Maryland version of Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. While Mfume will do better with black voters in places like heavily African-American and Democratic Prince George's County, his gains will be offset by loses in the whiter and more conservative Baltimore suburbs. While Cardin won't do as well as Mfume in PG, he will do well enough in BaltCo and AA to win state-wide.

        Really, all you have to do is substitute "radical Black church membership" for "allegations of ..." above, and you get the argument against Barack.

        These arguments did not convince me that I should not vote Mfume in the MD primary. However, let's not pretend that they're not advanced here at Dkos in favor of "the win".

        •  I don't think it's the same (0+ / 0-)

          Most--or at least some--of those issues of Mfume compared to Cardin seem like genuine political or character issues with race involved as only a secondary component, if at all. Either way, a valid political argument could have been made for Mfume or Cardin and, in the end, one of them had to win.

          As of now, the people who are allegedly using this argument against Obama seem to be using it in place of a political argument for not voting for him.

        •  Such arguments are unacceptable. (0+ / 0-)

          They're appalling whether leveled against Mfume or against Obama.

          "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

          by Geekesque on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:57:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  It is not fair to compare Obama--- (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Geekesque, Lady Bird Johnson

          to another black candidate, like Mfume or Ford.  Obama is not like those other candidates.  He has proven to have wide appeal that transcends race.  He charms everyone.  And don't repeat Fox Noise's allegation against Barack's church.  It is a liberal Christian church with a mostly black congregation in a mostly black neighborhood south of Chicago, which preaches self-reliance---not real scary.

    •  They state that he's unelectable and then fail (10+ / 0-)

      to state a reason why he's unelectable and duck out the back door when asked for a reason.

      "[R]ather high-minded, if not a bit self-referential"--The Washington Post.

      by Geekesque on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:09:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong for the woman AND for the race argument (3+ / 0-)

        Claiming that Hillary is a woman, and thus unelectable, and then not voting for her.  No difference. These things tend to have a life of their own.  The Polls asking if we are ready for a woman candidate blah blah blah. Both are wrong. You vote for who you think is the best candidate - period.  What you do when you don't vote for someone because you don't think she/he is going to win, is you pile on to the pundits' case for why he/she won't win.  Then it becomes true.   Don't do that!

        "I think we can all agree, the past is history", George W. Bush, worst ever Orator and POTUS.

        by comstockgrants on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:45:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I've seen it around here... (11+ / 0-)

      and in some offline conversations with friends.   It usually comes up a bit more subtly, as in "I don't think America is ready to elect a black man".

      "President Obama will be the most liberal President of our lifetime."

      by rashomon on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:09:58 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Several people (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      wystler, Yoshimi, Geekesque

      All liberals, just in the last few days.

    •  I have never seen/heard such (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      dennisl, leonard145b, TomP

      from any anyone who would vote democratic in the first place.

      It is an incredibly weak argument against a candidate, and certainly racist in nature even if the person using it is not.
      No one who thinks things thru would use it with any expectation of support, unless speaking to a racist audience.

      It would be like telling people not to support Hillary because "America is not ready for a woman president", and wouldn't get the votes.

      Wait a minute, people around here are saying that all the time, maybe the diarist has a point... just maybe not the one they expressed.

      "The world is a mess, and I just need... to rule it" - Dr. Horrible

      by Niniane on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:26:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Both are said here (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Geekesque
        •  Indeed they are, and not just here (0+ / 0-)

          And each time I've seen it, I've responded to it.  It's EXACTLY the argument that many businesses used as an excuse to not hire blacks (we're not racists, but many of our customers are, and we can't afford to alienate our customers), and that landlords made for refusing to rent to blacks (we're not racists, but many of our tenants are, and they'd move out if we rented to blacks).

          In fact, this is exactly the argument that the (ironically, black) South Carolina state senator who is a paid consultant to Hillary Clinton made for not supporting Obama, except that his was even one step worse in its imputation of racism to voters -- not only would they not vote for Obama, but they wouldn't vote for ANY Democrat, and he'd take the entire ticket down in flames with him.

          "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither liberty nor security." -Ben Franklin

          by leevank on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 12:58:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I think it's a question. (0+ / 0-)

      It's a question I answer with an affirmation, that is, that he's electable.  But I certainly can't say for sure that this country is going to elect a black man president. I think he's got a campaign on his hands.

      Offshore Oil/NatGas is our Strategic Reserve. Save it for when the rest of the world runs out.

      by Inland on Mon Mar 12, 2007 at 01:24:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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