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    •  Precisely... (47+ / 0-)

      as a member of both communities (Wrote 90% of the article on Leopard Syndrome), I can say with certainty that any corrections of edits to wikipedia articles, particularly from an "anonymous" IP, with an appropriate explanation on the discussion page would be supported by most of the Wikipedia community. I hope that it is not blind reverting though, please try to improve the articles in question and follow other conventions.

      Please be aware though that there is also a 3 revert rule, that limits reversion of articles to avoid edit wars (particularly on "controversial" topics)

      Bigotry is the disease of ignorance...Education & free discussion are the antidotes of both. Thomas Jefferson

      by RiverCityMadman on Tue Aug 14, 2007 at 09:30:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wikipedia has no more credibility (7+ / 0-)

        IMO, as long as this kind of crap is allowed to continue.

        On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

        by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 04:40:58 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What do you suggest? (11+ / 0-)

          ...considering that wikipedia itself must never appear to have an agenda?

          They can't block specific IPs unless those IPs are guilty of vandalism. Otherwise they WOULD be partisan.

          Reverting the entries back seems the only solution.

          Righties constantly say wikipedia has no crediblity, simply because there is no 'unitary executive' running wikipedia that gets to spin the "truth" in a given direction.

          Are you advocating same?

          "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

          by malharden on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:09:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If it looks like the hacks are partisian, they (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Rogneid

            can freeze the page, I think, for review.

            You don't negotiate with fascists, you defeat them in the name of democracy. --Ambr. Joe Wilson

            by FightTheFuture on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:14:17 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  There obviously needs to be (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            mataliandy

            some sort of oversight over there that does not allow articles to be edited or removed because someone doesn't like the info contained in them. That's considered to be "revisionist history". The 'Rethugs do it all the time, and so does FAUX. We all know that.

            If this kind of thing goes on over there, and has been going on over there (something I've seen in the past), then why should I find them to be a credible source of anything, even if they do get more things right than not?

            This tarnishes them overall. It puts a big-league hurt on their credibility, and it doesn't make me a "rightie" to say that.

            On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

            by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:19:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sort of agree... (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              mataliandy

              ...but sort of disagree.

              I think they know that they are not credible as a perfect, unerring source of information.

              However, they are extremely valuable as a reference tool, if only as a portal/jump page to get to the numerous citations given on most topics.

              Unlike O'Reilly, rarely does a wikipedia page state something as fact without citation. If you author a page and do that, you get your hand slapped by a wikipedia editor (which has happened to me) until you fix it. If you don't fix it, they sometimes delete your entry (also has happened to me).

              There IS oversight over there. That's my point. Is the oversight perfect? No. Because they're all volunteers.

              In that way, they parallel THIS site. Oversight here is not perfect either, because it's community driven. Still, I don't think you would say

              why should I find them to be a credible source of anything, even if they do get more things right than not

              about this site, right?

              "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

              by malharden on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:38:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't know that (0+ / 0-)

                comparing DK to Wiki is valid, first of all. DK is a blog, and an admittedly partisan one at that. The diaries here need to be sourced, and if they're not sourced properly, you get your hand slapped. But that's about as far as you can reasonably go with that comparison. Wikipedia appears to aspire to the status of an online encyclopedia. Two different things, you must admit.

                I've seen entries deleted altogether from Wikipedia because there were fights over the revisionist history going on BY some of these volunteer Wiki editors vs. the comments made by the public.

                I don't say they have to be perfect, I'm saying their credibility just took a serious hit, and at the very least, it would make me think twice before I use it as a source, or recommend it to anyone else. I probably won't ever use them again, just on general principle, because they let known history revisionists (FAUX) REVISE THEM. IMO, that shoots Wiki's credibility straight to hell, and I can't reasonably see me ever changing my mind on that.

                On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

                by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:54:01 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I believe it is actually called wikiality (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              drbloodaxe, malharden

              "Maybe you know something I don't know." -- G Dub (-4.38,-3.03)

              by don the tin foil on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:49:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Wikipedia Must Face Reality (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            malharden

            Microsoft learned that malicious behavior was exploiting weaknesses in their software and was forced to devote considerable resources to this problem. Wikipedia is faced with a similar problem.

            This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

            by Mr X on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:37:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Righties?" (9+ / 0-)

            Righties constantly say wikipedia has no crediblity, simply because there is no 'unitary executive' running wikipedia that gets to spin the "truth" in a given direction.

            That's actually kind of funny.  I've never met anyone who thinks wikipedia has credibility.

            That turn-it-on-its-head statement reminds me of the exchange in The Russia House (an underrated movie and excellent soundtrack, in my opinion), wherein Blair (Sean Connnery) is being interviewed by a group of MI5 and CIA  questioners about a Soviet leak:

            Interrogator: Have you ever met any jazz musicians you would describe, or who would describe themselves, as anarchists?

            Blair: Hmmm... ah, there was a trombone player, Wilfred Baker.

            [The interrogators start writing feverishly]

            Blair: He's the only jazz musician I can think of who is completely devoid of anarchist tendencies.

            [The interrogators lay their pencils down and look up at Blair sheepishly]

            Wikipedia is fine to look up some things such as the biography of an obscure actor or the meaning of slang or stuff like that.  For anyone to rely on it as an authoritative source on anything controversial or technically complex would be a serious mistake.  It isn't just that Wikipedia is wrong -- probably 75 percent or more of the information there is correct -- it's just that it can be wrong as easily as it can be right, and there's no way for an uninformed person using it as their sole source of information to discriminate between the two.

            •  You missed my point. We don't disagree. (2+ / 0-)

              I said "Righties constantly say wikipedia has no crediblity" -- the operative word there being "no".

              You then later said "For anyone to rely on it as an authoritative source on anything controversial or technically complex would be a serious mistake".

              And, I agree with your statement as well.

              It is not an authoritative source. What I believe it IS is a reasonable reference, and a portal that links to other sources, some of which the reader might find to be authoritative. (Some of the links are to MSM, and Dinesh D'souza, so you take that for what its worth, too.)

              I maintain that in that capacity, wikipedia is a tremendous resource.

              "Watch what you watchin'. Fox keeps feeding us toxins. Stop sleeping, start thinking outside of the box and unplug from The Matrix doctrine." -Nas

              by malharden on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 06:36:11 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I suggest (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            TexDem, Coherent Viewpoint

            That Wikipedia program in the functions of the Wikipedia Scanner that revealed these edits.

            Transparency, the ability to view the edits and know who is editing is more practical and more valuable than censoring the edits.

            If you restrict the ability for user editing you destroy the concept that Wikipedia is based on. It is a user built encyclopedia.

            If you block certain entities from editing or restore the edited text then who is deciding who can edit or which items get restored? What if that person was a far right republican? This would put Wikipedia in the position of being the arbiter of disputes, a position they neither want nor can they afford.

            Wikipedia is actually pretty good for the vast majority of information. If you look up something non-controversial like 'Victor Wooten' or 'natural logarithms' you get good information. Wikipedia marks entries without references or with vague references.

            If you are looking up 'Bill O'Reilly' on a user edited site, you should be questioning the where the information comes from. If you believe everything you read well then maybe you are Brit Hume.

            If users had the ability to view the edited text and see who is editing it, the function that the Wiki Scanner makes easier, then they can judge for themselves. The knowledge that someone is changing a site is information too, sometimes valuable. The knowledge that Fox News is sanitizing wikipedia is another confirmation of their efforts to distort information.

            Even with screen names and IP spoofing, the knowledge that someone has edited entries can be valuable. If someone has gone in and removed all negative references to Bill O'Reilly you probably know that it wasn't Al Franken.

            The other aspect that needs to be brought to light is that wikipedia is not unique. You should also be asking yourself who is editing the other printed material that you read. Just being in a book doesn't make it factual either.

            Live to create the world you want to live in.

            by beerm on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 06:53:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Then (0+ / 0-)

              they should stick to doing what they do best:

              Wikipedia is actually pretty good for the vast majority of information. If you look up something non-controversial like 'Victor Wooten' or 'natural logarithms' you get good information. Wikipedia marks entries without references or with vague references.

              On this much I agree. But obviously, they need to get out of the practice of listing anything "current events" related that appear in any way to have "controversy" surrounding them.

              That's what this whole exercise is about, isn't it? FAUX appeas to have participated in some spinning and or "revisionist history", over things they find to be controversial that they want to change. And they have done this, as the IP logs clearly indicate. And I have to wonder how many times those changes took place before regular folks gave up in trying to set the record straight?

              Again, I ask, who else might be guilty of such transgressions besides FAUX? It should not be up to the casual user seeking information to police Wikipedia, to determine if whatever they're looking up is accurate. At the very least, a casual user, if he/she were to learn of this situation, will now have to wonder if what they find here is correct or not, depending on what info they seek. This, in my mind, screws with the credibility of the entire site.

              And that's a shame, because beerm is correct--on "non-controversial topics", the Wikipedia is a pretty good resource.

              On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

              by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:04:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Some information is controversial (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                o the umanity

                I somewhat agree that you don't want the casual user being responsible for policing Wikipedia. To some extent it would destroy its usefullness as a reference. Besides some of the users are children doing book reports, etc. Children are exposed to a lot of things online but, glowing reviews of falafel Bill, well now that is just sick.

                I do not think, however, you can get away from the responsibility to police the information you get from any source. Policing the information you use is the price of a free soceity and one well worth it in my opinion.

                The uncritical acceptance information by the public from sources like Fox News lies at the heart of the problems we face today. I hear co-workers discussing stories that can be easily refuted with a google search. Good information is out there, they just cannot be bothered.

                Some information is by its nature controversial. Out at the leading edges of science there is controversial information on whether bristlecone pine data should be used in climate models which Grand Unified Theory is most correct. Not all information is true or false and sometimes the controversy is the information.

                What I am after is a practical and robust method of verification that allows for controversy and avoids censorship.

                Some ideas like moderation can make the task more manageable but they cannot make it go away. First off, if you trust a moderator to select your info, you now have to monitor the moderator. Case in point, what if Roger Ailes is the moderator? Second, moderation without the right controls is censorship. I am more opposed to censorship than I am to bad information.

                This is one of the reasons I proposed transparency, the ability to see all edits and who did them, allows us to be our own moderators. Since it is distributed it is immune to becoming censorship.

                Of course as you point out, this is the problem of the casual user having to police the site.

                Another item I'd like to suggest is trust or authentication tags. I heard this idea presented by Tim Berner-Lee at a talk on the Semantic Web, several years ago.

                Trust or authentication tags are an internet version of a Good Housekeeping Seal or a Consumer Reports approval. Someone posting or using information could ask an independent reviewer to verify and sign the post. It might be more about having the right review procedures in place than about individual posts like an ISO 9000 standard, e.g. this site is certified to have review and retraction standards in place.

                There has to be a business model and standards to support this but it is a workable idea. Once again it avoids censorship because the user can decide who he or she trusts as an authentication provider.

                Of course Fox News can set themselves as a provider, and there will be people who only believe what they authenticate. But the rest of us can point to the Fox News seal of approval and laugh our asses off or better yet, set our preferences to block news with the Fox News seal of approval.

                Live to create the world you want to live in.

                by beerm on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:56:18 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Good thoughts! (0+ / 0-)

                  There has to be a business model and standards to support this but it is a workable idea. Once again it avoids censorship because the user can decide who he or she trusts as an authentication provider.

                  It's all new territory, for sure! And you're right, as many have pointed out. We have to be cognizant of ALL info we take in, regardless of the source. Kids doing book reports, though, do not take that kind of time. Stick a 'pedia at the end of it, and boom--to them, it's instant credibility (though God help them if they're doing a book report on O'Liarhead). Yes, parents are responsible in part, to teach their kids to be more discerning, but that doesn't always happen.

                  There's a post out here referencing "the Pet Goat" and GWB. That's a great example of the kinds of things I've seen out there:

                  Not only was criticism of Bush largely knocked out of the main Bush article, but now there's an argument over whether even mentioning "The Pet Goat" is allowable: "The choice of lesson plan material chosen by the teacher is not notable with regard to criticism of Bush."

                  I wonder how long that "discussion" went on, if it's even completed? How many changes to the actual entry took place before some arbitrary decision was made by someone:

                  "Not notable with regard to criticism of Bush"

                  ?? Maybe, maybe not. One wonders if there's an entry regarding "criticism of a Secret Service who allowed their charge to sit in an open classroom in a school where the location had been publicly disclosed to the media, during a surprise attack on American soil". One can also now wonder if such an entry would be permitted or even necessary?

                  I really like your idea--it's just a matter of "who would be the trusted source of authentication". It's a step in the right direction...

                  On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

                  by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:33:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Have to be critical about everything, everywhere (5+ / 0-)

          Even here is dkos, of course!

          One of my favorite enlightening books: Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong

          We're in a culture that increasingly holds that science is just another belief. - Alan Alda

          by sawgrass727 on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:18:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  what's scary about that is (0+ / 0-)

            every time I've been to a Wiki edit page, I see screen-names, I don't see real names. For all we know, Wiki editors could be editors in RL, too. What if some of them hold editorial positions at publishing houses that produce American education-system-approved school textbooks?

            On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

            by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 05:33:46 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds like in this case with Fox... (4+ / 0-)

              The Fox is in the chicken house.

              I doubt wiki intended to be an extension of the FOX public relations office or to be co-opted by their propagandist news writers as an outlet.

            •  Of course there are Screennames... (0+ / 0-)

              just as there are screennames here, or is o your real name? Users do have user pages, although what we are dscssing here are anonymous edits, not user edits.

              There is oversight and in fact it gets policed rather strictly. Frequently there is a consensus reached, because wikipedia does strive for what is called NPOV (neutral point of view), wikipedia is not partisan.
              Also if you look at some articles (Abortion, Homosexuality) the talkpages will identify those issues where discussion should take place before editing is even considered. Admins have the ability to lock an article (Doctor Who) Just as an aside, how bad does vandalism have to be to have to protect a BBC sci-fi show?

              Blocking an IP is frequently a last resort, for good reason, but it has been done.

              IMPORTANT: Before blocking any IP address, run a WHOIS and Reverse DNS (RDNS) lookup on the address. Be aware of any implications your block reason has for other people on Shared IPs and use"{{anonblock}}" or "{{schoolblock}}" as your reason for blocking when appropriate. The Real-time Blackhole List (RBL) link can also be used to determine if an IP address is dynamically allocated or has been compromised

              Bigotry is the disease of ignorance...Education & free discussion are the antidotes of both. Thomas Jefferson

              by RiverCityMadman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:01:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You mean you're not really named RiverCityMadman? (3+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                wystler, o the umanity

                Dang.

                Well, I am Dr. Bloodaxe.

                At least a few of us are too deficient in imagination to come up with fake handles. :P

                Got a problem with my posts? Quit reading them. They're usually opinions, and I don't come here to get in arguments.

                by drbloodaxe on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:15:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  Great book... (0+ / 0-)

            "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain

            by dotdot on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 06:16:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  What Is Credible? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          IL dac, Coherent Viewpoint

          Wikipedia is useful as a compilation of facts and analysis. But, like all reported facts and analysis, it's as reliable only as it is testable. Readers using the facts for any consequential action, even just repeating them, have to check them out. Wikipedia flags unsourced sections. And Wikipedia readers who use sections without checking their sources are reckless.

          Compare that to other compilations of facts and analysis. Like newspapers, magazines, TV/radio news/documentaries. You can't check their sources, even when they're cited. They're usually not cited. Instead of checkable sources, you're forced to trust the publisher, which is invariably a huge media corporation. Which is invariably in some business that is robbing or killing people.

          Wikipedia is more credible than corporate mass media, unless you're too credulous. This is the Info Age: you can trust the info industries as much as you could trust the colony industries in the Colonial Age. That is, not at at all.

          One of Wikipedia's main benefits is stripping the corporate mass media emperor of the myth that he's clothed. If only by comparison to a new player in a G-string. Unless you're committed to never believing anything you read, you should instead learn how to read Wikipedia. And face the facts about the misplaced trust you've proabably long placed in the familiar corporate mass media that's in the business of lying to us.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:03:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  What??????? oh chicken little...STOP IT (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          cris0000

          It has been allowed since day one, there are ways to resolve the issue.  Enough with the grand statements.

          •  It is NOT a grand statement (0+ / 0-)

            to question who decides what "credible" is, or to state that "credibility" left in the hands of hacks from FAUX, tarnishes an otherwise decent resource. Because it DOES.

            Now, if Wikipedia wants to get out of the business of accepting entries about "current events" that are subject to interpretation, or info on notable people whose reputation might be at risk if disinformation was allowed to stand, that might be a good idea.

            Obviously, "credible" is in the eye of the beholder. But this smacks of partisanship, too, and it's crap.

            On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

            by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 08:46:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Strongly disagree (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          o the umanity

          To say that Wikipedia has "no more credibility" is to imply that Wikipedia screens articles for some kind of fairness or truth. That wouldn't work, and could never work, because who determines truth? Wikipedia, to my knowledge, has never tried to edit peoples' opinions.

          Given the changing nature of network news, I don't see how we can ever expect Wikipedia articles, such as the ones cited in this diary, to remain stable over time.

          I don't know how Wikipedia handles such "wars" for control of opinionated content. I think do the articles in question ought to be labeled as containing a lot of opinion rather than a lot of fact.

          "This document is totally non-redactable and non-segregable and cannot even be meaningfully described." *

          by dratman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 11:35:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  see above/below (0+ / 0-)

            somewhere in here, I make the suggestion that they should stick to 'factual subjects' and leave 'controversial stuff' out.

            Simple--if a page generates way too much heat, get rid of it. That'll help their credibility, and it will keep them from having to arbitrarily determine what is "fair", "true" or "factual" when talking about something like "Criticism of George W Bush".

            On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

            by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 12:39:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  WP actually has quite a few policies on that (0+ / 0-)

            WP actually has quite a few policies on such issues. One of the strongest quality requirements are laid down in Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Those apply in most cited articles, and basically, from my point of view, the Fox person didn'td delete enough. Those articles are still an embarassment for WP and should be replaced with stubs until someone comes along and writes real biographical articles.
          •  however (0+ / 0-)

            remember that if you find a useful version of an article and it disappears, you can find it on the Wayback Machine.

            Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

            by alizard on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 03:50:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Don't even need Wayback... (0+ / 0-)

              Wikipedia keeps a history of edits (it's how reverting is done) and differentials, even of minor edits (usually for grammar, punctuation and spelling)

              Bigotry is the disease of ignorance...Education & free discussion are the antidotes of both. Thomas Jefferson

              by RiverCityMadman on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 09:23:02 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  That was the point I (0+ / 0-)

        was kind of driving at a bit further downthread.

        Who
        decides what is 'controversial'? Us? Not always, if FAUX hacks are pulling this kind of crap.

        I appreciate that this was brought to everyone's attention, but if FAUX is doing it, who else is?

        On second thought , let's not go to Camelot. 'Tis a silly place

        by o the umanity on Wed Aug 15, 2007 at 07:49:03 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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