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  •  The problem with Obama's remarks is NOT (5+ / 0-)

    his analysis that Reagan created more change than Nixon or Clinton. Surely, Reagan was able to effect greater change from Carter (and even going back to Nixon) than Clinton was able to effect from Reagan and Bush.

    Of course, making this point underscores the importance of finding out exactly what kinds of change Obama, Clinton, and Edwards want to make, and how they want to effect change. Change as a slogan doesn't tell us anything worth knowing about a candidate.

    But I am troubled by Obama's (apparently approving) reference to "all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s." In the context of Reagan's election, this doesn't seem to be a reference to such things as Vietnam and Watergate. Rather, it calls to mind civil rights, the Great Society, women's liberation, and the like.

    Perhaps Obama meant to refer to people's perceptions that these constituted excesses. To the extent that was true, however, the perceptions were more manufactured than real, reflected some of what is worst in America, and should have been fought rather than ridden to the White House. I wish Obama were clearer about this.

    •  Your last graph summarizes my problem (3+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC, Cassandra77, phoenixdreamz

      with this perfectly, but I think Obama intentionally blurred these matters. He knows what he's doing.

      Then let us learn our range: we are something but we are not everything - Pascal

      by jlb1972 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 06:45:12 AM PDT

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    •  You think civil rights etc. were excesses? (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MarkC

      Of course you don't (I assume).  Why do you assume that Obama does?  That is, why do you assume he's talking about curbing the positive accomplishments of the 60's and 70's rather than the negative things (including, BTW, the problems of Nixon)?

      Their number is negligible and they are stupid. -- Eisenhower

      by Pegasus on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 07:07:05 AM PDT

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      •  Chicago '68, Kent State were excesses (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Cassandra77, lanikai, lgmcp, jlb1972

        Watergate was excess, and the Congressional reaction afterward tipped scales the other way....

        And the US was not ready to sacrifice comfort and luxury to wean itself from imported oil as Carter wanted.

        Reagan was "fergetaboutit" whaddyagonnado?

      •  Clarity, or in this instance, (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        jlb1972

        lack of clarity is my primary concern.

        If asked directly, I doubt Obama would call civil rights, etc., excesses. But his remarks do not make clearly make that point.

        Had Obama clearly said that Reagan took advantage of, and, indeed, contributed to, people's misperceptions of (limited) progressive steps forward in the 1960s and 1970s as being excessive, that would have undermined the notion that "change" by itself is an adequate program or slogan.

        •  unreasonable standard (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Pegasus

          aa -- these remarks were not freestanding, they were part of a question and answer. If I'm discussing electoral politics, not Reagan's record, I don't see why I have to add "and Reagan tricked people" every time I talk about his popularity. Listen to the interview (link in diary) and tell me if you think that in context such a clarification would even have been relevant.

          I recommend also MBNYC's diary on this topic.

          "Stare at the monster: remark/ How difficult it is to define just what/ Amounts to monstrosity in that/ Very ordinary appearance." - Ted Hughes

          by MarkC on Thu Jan 17, 2008 at 08:28:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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