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for progressives doing what's best for the movement
by david mizner on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:11:21 AM PDT
by flubber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:22:16 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
did i say that out loud.
"It's a race to decide who the British goverment will follow blindly for the next 4 years" Kennedy/Kerry '08
by Salo on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:45:56 AM PDT
Happy New Year Salo.
Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:48:47 AM PDT
Seriously, I'm starting to think we're becoming the very serious people we hate.
Markos, Atrios, Chris Bowers, Matt Stoller, we're all just people. Just bloggers with a platform.
Nobody is going to change their vote because of us. We should discuss and be active for progressive reform. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that our endorsements are going to change each other's or anyone else's minds just by bringing an endorsement down from on high.
On substantive issues, sure, we may convince each other. But not just by slapping our names on a candidate. Yes, that even includes Markos and Atrios.
OBAMATHON! We CAN Believe Again!
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:55:02 AM PDT
FUNDING.
by Salo on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:02:11 AM PDT
Grudgingly, the MSM have been recognizing the strength of the progressive blogosphere. Yes, the individual diarists' posts may not reach the press that much. But that the most notable bloggers are endorsing someone is a big deal.
In a way, I wish it weren't so, because the strength of this movement is in the broader numbers, but the numbskulls they call journalists in the MSM can only handle a few names at a time.
Public confidence in the news media is not as great as it once was, so that a newspaper reporting that Atrios or Markos endorses Edwards (especially if the MSM are snide about it) might cause a reader to wonder what the fuss is all about and learn something about someone other than Clinton or Obama.
Edwards Democrat My moniker is in honor of three generations of women whose soul's were seared in the cauldron of Hell's Kitchen, NYC
by hells kitchen on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:53:58 AM PDT
...but I think Atrios did.
Kos is still pissed at the Edwards camp on here for tangling with AdamB so much.
by Salo on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:36:59 PM PDT
...I think it would be really cool if we all (those that can afford it) would donate the dollar equivalent of Edwards' Iowa percentage... If John gets 32% of the vote, we each donate $32 to the campaign.
A great way to show solidarity and support on "the morning after".
What say you, fellow Edwards supporters?
"A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr.
by liberaldemdave on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:54:44 AM PDT
Many of us have been in despair over what is happening to the country. We were excited about our choices this round. I developed a preference but was open to more than one. What was not negotiable for me were the progressive principles that I had starting in the 60s and watching the country turn liberal into a dirty word.
I had great hope for Obama, but really for 2016 after a cleanup by Edwards. However if O won I wasn't going to be overly upset. That is no longer true. I just don't think he is committed to progressive principles. I think he is a good person, but not the right leader for these times. And I have become angry with the disingenuous criticisms of Edwards.
Many of O's younger supporters really don't understand the history and the passion of some of us who lived through the assassinations and then the hijacking of the country by Reagan. Edwards is who we need now. The 'sphere is the collective voice of many progressives. It is not so powerful yet but I see it growing. I hopw we can change some minds. I think the nature of the country depends on it.
And you have to follow your heart. I follow mine as well as my head.
by pioneer111 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:07:52 AM PDT
Personally, he could call himself Reagan reincarnated and I wouldn't care. I value what people did with their lives, not what they say in their political campaigns.
I find Obama to be a much more progressive person and legislator than any of his rivals from the Senate, current campaign language notwithstanding.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:35:40 AM PDT
I did not watch Obama when he was in the state lesislature in Illinois. It is my impression that he had a progressive constituency, and I sometimes wonder if his constituency helped shape his views. I wasn't there.
I was in NC watching John Edwards....since he was first in our newspapers as the courageous young attorney standing up against the giant law firms. I have always found him to be honest, brave and loyal.
I have watched him lead many moderates, (like myself), and even some conservatives, along with him as he has championed progressive issues. I have watched as the respect for Edwards has helped win people over to progressive ideas. I think he can win over many, many more as this campaign moves ahead.
I have personally heard John Edwards talk about progressive ideas in a room of NC leaders who were not very big on the ideas of unions or universal healthcare, or raising taxes on large corporations. Edwards stood his ground and made his points, and convinced a good number.
I know that John Edwards is honest and is ready to lead.
It is fine for you to support Mr. Obama, but please do not imply that Edwards has not done as much with his life. Edwards has done plenty, and is a fine and honest man.
by bettync on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:08:41 AM PDT
ignoring current campaign language in favor of the limited and easily distorted public records available. But I cannot understand ignoring current truth and reality in favor of it.
"Fear not the path of truth for the lack of people walking on it." Robert F. Kennedy
by enough already on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:21:22 AM PDT
What is the "current truth and reality"? That John Edwards was an unimpressive senator and before that was a rich trial lawyer?
That Barack Obama worked on the streets helping people fight their landlords and register to vote and in classrooms defending the constitution and tirelessly advocated progressive ideals as both a state senator and US senator? That he has a better liberal / environmental track record than anyone else running except Kucinich as proven by LCV, Drum Major institute, planned parenthood, and several other scoring institutions?
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:40:09 AM PDT
Obama's a decent man, and would be a great improvement over Bush. But after 7 years of W, the trial lawyers are the only people keeping us safe from dangerous products and massive pollution (since the regulators are lying down on the job).
It's disturbing to watch Obama supporters go after trial lawyers. Also, Edwards didn't start out as a rich trial lawyer; he started out poorer than Obama did, and became rich by being highly successful at his job.
by Joe Buck on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:11:04 PM PDT
between doing everything you can to help people and passing up the big money, and helping a few people while making a killing.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:04:16 PM PDT
obama voted for more of it.
by BBelle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:05:58 PM PDT
There's a major difference between doing everything you can to help people and passing up the big money, and helping a few people while making a killing.
Yeah, the former will get you elected to sainthood while the latter can help you become president.
by brentmack on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 05:34:50 PM PDT
democracy, and can fight for the poor, downtrodden, injured, abused, etc. They are the last line of defense against Bushism. It is really hard to overstate how important good trial lawyers are to our country.
A billion here and a billion there, and soon you're talking about real money. Everett Dirksen
by Sargent Pepper on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:48:54 PM PDT
Sorry, I have nothing against trial lawyers, but they are not the lawyers who "preserve our democracy". And they are not the "last line of defense against Bushism". Trial lawyers are just that - some are criminal trial lawyers, some are corporate defense trial lawyers (which is what John Edwards started out as), some are plaintiff's lawyers (which is what John Edwards ended up as). I would suggest that it is constitutional law lawyers who are the last line of defense against Bushism - that's the kind of lawyer Obama was. I would suggest that it is civil rights lawyers who fight for the poor, downtrodden, discriminated against - that's the kind of lawyer Obama was - helping laid-off steelworkers, victims of housing discrimination and voting discrimination.
And, you might like to check this article out . . .
Vote of Confidence
. . . if you want to know how someone who worked on the ground, like Obama, has actually affected real change in the electoral process: It starts out like this:
A huge black turnout in November 1992 altered Chicago's electoral landscape-and raised a new political star: a 31-year-old lawyer named Barack Obama.
And then continues:
The most effective minority voter registration drive in memory was the result of careful handiwork by Project Vote!, the local chapter of a not-for-profit national organization. "It was the most efficient campaign I have seen in my 20 years in politics," says Sam Burrell, alderman of the West Side's 29th Ward and a veteran of many registration drives.
And near the end:
Some of Daley's closest advisers are similarly impressed. "In its technical demands, a voter-registration drive is not unlike a mini-political campaign," says John Schmidt, chairman of the Metropolitan Pier and Exposition Authority and a fundraiser for Project Vote! "Barack ran this superbly. I have no doubt he could run an equally good political campaign if that's what he decided to do next."
And while I have no inside information about how Obama has gone about organizing for the Iowa caucuses or New Hampshire primary, I've long suspected that his experience not just as a community organizer, but more importantly his experience in a massive and very successful voter registration drive, might give us all a hint.
by latinjum on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:23:54 PM PDT
mediate every issue with everyone. We need someone who is willing and able to fight. I don't think that Obama has shown that he has the stomach for the real fight. The republicans and establishment democrats are status quo people who want to maintain their little empires. they need to be rocked off their foundations.
by Sargent Pepper on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:52:01 PM PDT
I could have written it myself.
by enough already on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:14:47 AM PDT
I have waited a long time for a true progressive who can win and beat any Republican. I began reading the "Progressive" magazine not long after I left my parent's farm and quit looking at the "Progressive Farmer".
...[W]e believe, once again, that John Edwards is the candidate who will finally put an end to the plaintive mewling for, and cooing about, the need for bi-partisanship and consensus in our capital.
I love this quote. "Mewling" is a great word for this reference to Obama's leadership style. "Cooing" is strong but not as strong as a pointed reference to Hillary. I see her more in the mode of "calculating" as in "I'll cave on health care for all if you will give me NAFTA from the early Clinton administration. I know the final decision was made by Bill but since there was no later effort to fully implement health care for all, you have to assume she "submitted" to the deal.
Eisenhower- "We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage."
by NC Dem on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:07:40 PM PDT
The joy that filtered through this place when Kucinich offered to throw his supporters to Obama and when Obama came out ahead in the DMR poll was every bit as palpable as your obvious bitterness that the intellectuals in the A-List blogosphere are supporting John Edwards.
The screen name suits you in this instance.
At Facebook: The 12/12 Campaign / Harry Taylor for Congress 2008
by Iddybud on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:29:36 AM PDT
I think they have every right to talk about who they're voting for, and I'm kind of curious myself.
But saying things like "The Sphere Coalescing" is ridiculous. Some prominent bloggers in a sea of tens of thousands of bloggers endorsed a candidate. Some of those weren't even full endorsements.
We're getting a little ahead of ourselves if we think the blogosphere is "coalescing" around a candidate cause a handful of popular bloggers say so.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:37:27 AM PDT
What's next?
I have healthy respect for these writers, although I may not agree with everything they've ever said.
As their peer, I am quite satisfied with the way they're coming around to see this movement.
by Iddybud on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:48:03 AM PDT
There aren't enough in the world to come around. The whole point is that it's antithetical to the blogosphere to say that it's coalescing around a candidate in a hotly contested primary with multiple progressive candidates.
Even in 2004, the blogosphere didn't fully "coalesce" around Dean, even if Markos was working for his campaign.
and you're right about one thing, perhaps the "no one cares" tagline was a little inflamatory. My bad. But it wasn't my main point.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:59:19 AM PDT
antithetical to the blogosphere
Judging from the echo chamber effect we've clearly seen when A-listers talk, I don't think it's antitheical at all.
We see examples of those echoes right here at Daily Kos when grand-poobah Markos speaks.
Dean, in 2004, was considered to be an internet-harnessing pioneer.
I think it's quite safe to say that the liberal bloggers gathered 'round him at that time.
by Iddybud on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:09:08 AM PDT
You can't say they coalesced at all. The support for Edwards is strong on this particular blog, and some others, but that doesn't mean that the blogosphere has coalesced around anything.
And if you ask me, the dailykos straw polls would be a much better point of proof for "coalescing" than a few FP bloggers. Even then, unless it's unanimous or nearly unanimous, I think this diary is trying to make a point for a consensus that doesn't exist.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:22:27 AM PDT
by Iddybud on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:26:40 AM PDT
You're wrong. Go look up coalesce in the dictionary sometime.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:33:05 AM PDT
the country is coming around to see this movement. The blogosphere is just now beginning to reflect it. 2004 was then. This is now and it's 2008. Happy New Year!
by enough already on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:27:58 AM PDT
but the movement they're seeing does not belong to John Edwards.
Don't worry, you'll be on the O train soon enough.
by JustAngry on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:33:46 AM PDT
And he can go back to grooming for a bid in 2016. But, if not, I would still vote for him, or Hillary in the general election.
He's just not my first choice. As a matter of fact, he is now #3. Did I make you just a little bit more angry, Just Angry?
"United we stand, divided we fall"
by Cassandra77 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:55:50 AM PDT
OpenLeft
Eschaton
dKos
MyDD
HuffPo
The Agonist
Corrente
Angry Bear
C&L
Ezra Klein
Read the threads dude, as I do every day, and you will find a majority there calling for Edwards, Edwards, Edwards and they have been for some time.
Obama....I'm not going there. Go see for yourself if you really want to know.
'I'm writing as Nestor since scoop in it's awesome wisdom won't let me use my real screen name: A.Citizen'
by Nestor Makhnow on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:08:07 AM PDT
And their delegates to the convention total how much?
Oh yeah. None.
Oh, and the threads here are just as pro-Obama as Edwards. The pro-Obama people at least like having a record to stand behind rather than this year's rhetoric to listen to.
by baronzito on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:35:36 PM PDT
"There are many truths of which the full meaning cannot be realized until personal experience has brought it home." John Stuart Mill
by kuvasz on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 03:05:02 PM PDT
But no one has a diary here touting her infinite wisdom and how it will change everything.
She does, however, have a little more pull than 5-10 blogs, sorry.
by baronzito on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 03:31:30 PM PDT
and you believe that a billionaire talk show host presents a better argument to vote for a candidate than bloggers who eat, drink, and sleep politics?
you ought to thank god you weren't around in the '70's or you would have followed jim jones all the way to the kool-aid pitchers.
by kuvasz on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 03:43:05 PM PDT
Seriously, put the Kool-Aid down.
What I said was, all those sites you're touting have little reach into the masses. Period. Suck it up and deal with it. 99.5% of America will never read this little pissing contest between me and you. Never. I can deal with that. Can you?
Oprah, on the other hand, has reach. Will it matter? Hell if I know, but she has no delegates herself. Nor do any of those blogs.
by baronzito on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:32:41 PM PDT
what you said about me was a lie. i never touted any sites in my posts. you made it up.
if the only way you believe that you can justify the unjustifable is be a liar you and obama ought to get along wonderfully.
in a time of prolonged class warfare that has decimated the middle class you tout a billonaire as a trendsetter for political direction?
you're not actually a democrat but a neo-liberal who is interested only in ego gratification and is willing to lie to defend himself. it makes you no different that a republican.
by kuvasz on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 05:31:04 PM PDT
First off, my involvement here started when I replied to a comment involving these sites:
OpenLeft Eschaton dKos MyDD HuffPo The Agonist Corrente Angry Bear C&L Ezra Klein
You came in defending them. Now, you say I'm a liar because you were defending the mention of these sites because I said their overall impact was less than was being made out to be.
And then you launch into personal attacks. Grow up. One, I have been supporting actual Democrats all my life. Two, I am supporting the actual Democrat that actually has voted like a progressive Democrat while in the Senate, unlike the one that has a 55% or so rating as a progressive while as a Senator but now spouts far more liberal rhetoric to get elected.
Get off your high horse, stop hurling insults, grow up a little, and learn to read.
by baronzito on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 05:42:55 PM PDT
this was your reply to me,
What I said was, all those sites you're touting have little reach into the masses
i never touted any site so stop telling other people to read when you don't seem to have mastered that skill yourself.
Get off your high horse, stop hurling insults, grow up a little, and learn to read
.
haha!
you're doing quite a job stabbing yourself right in the eyeball, kid.
by kuvasz on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:47:42 PM PDT
.........this year over 16,000,000 page hits.
But....
Hey!
Nobody's paying any attention here!
Kerry, able to spend more money than Bush in the most expensive election ever....
But hey!
That's not what Tweety and PumpkinHaid say!
I'd say get yer head out of your butt before your brain dies.
If it hasn't already.
by Nestor Makhnow on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:51:21 PM PDT
...I thought it was a veiled reference to the Eye of Sauron in the Lord of the Rings or some other archetypal evil, but maybe I'm just a geek.
The "Sphere" with a capital S sounds sinister to me. Kind of like SPECTRE in the bond films. Maybe KOS is our Blofeld. That would explain the obsession with cats around here.
"Don't say that you're more sorry than I am, because I'm capable of being just as sorry as you are. So we're both sorry, all right?" - President Merkin Muffley
by MalachiConstant on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:14:52 AM PDT
by Salo on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:56:47 PM PDT
http://en.wikipedia.org/...
... The group then faces a series of crises, including a giant squid, electrical fires and water snakes, which are all believed to be the work of an alien intelligence (the sphere) ... various members of the team are killed off until only Harry (Samuel L. Jackson), Norman (Dustin Hoffman) and Beth (Sharon Stone) remain. At this point, they realize that the three of them all entered the sphere, which gave them the power to manifest their thoughts into reality ... they must leave the Habitat because of Beth's premonition of wanting to kill herself, thus setting off an underwater explosive and obliterating the ship, the Habitat, and the surrounding environment. The film ends with the three deciding to give up their "powers" to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.
... The group then faces a series of crises, including a giant squid, electrical fires and water snakes, which are all believed to be the work of an alien intelligence (the sphere) ... various members of the team are killed off until only Harry (Samuel L. Jackson), Norman (Dustin Hoffman) and Beth (Sharon Stone) remain. At this point, they realize that the three of them all entered the sphere, which gave them the power to manifest their thoughts into reality ... they must leave the Habitat because of Beth's premonition of wanting to kill herself, thus setting off an underwater explosive and obliterating the ship, the Habitat, and the surrounding environment.
The film ends with the three deciding to give up their "powers" to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands.
The Great Obama might saw the lady in half, but he won't make the elephant disappear. The Confluence
by RonK Seattle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:48:51 PM PDT
anyone whose mind is already made up, but what about people whose minds are not made up yet? These endorsements couldn't hurt. Besides, the blogosphere serves as a counterbalance of sorts to the corporate traditional media for people to get information and decide their votes. It is also where the activist base across the country come together in a community. Remember that activists are the people who go and knock on people's doors and turn out the vote.
"The Power to change this party, and the power to change this country is in your hands, not mine." - Gov. Howard Dean, MD
by deaniac83 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:01:28 AM PDT
by Salo on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:58:21 AM PDT
So it's cool. ;)
Psst! Don't panic
by Quicklund on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:32:27 AM PDT
My hope is this will filter back to Iowa progressives.
Mass Eyes and Ears
by AJ WI on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:47:07 AM PDT
If Edwards outperforms tomorrow, everyone is going to come after him. Having the blogosphere to defend him, along with unions, will help let Democrats all over the nation know that the good Democrats of Iowa weren't crazy.
by flubber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:02:35 AM PDT
Taking the bi-partisanship out of politics for right now.
The American people are in no mood for anymore Republican silliness. You know it, I know it and those that don't really pay attention to politics continue to tell us that via polls.
Finalize the Konservative movement by making the right choice for President of the United States. We have great candidates. All will move us left of BushCo. One will move us forward by kicking Republic ass and not bothering to take names.
Let's take our country back. Let's become the leaders of freedom in the world, once again.
Let's make John Edwards our President.
Another day, another devalued Dollar. -6.00, -6.21
by funluvn1 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:23:01 AM PDT
...(and i think it is) then wouldn't the best candidate be the one who invites disgruntled GOP voters to cross party lines, rather than the one who vows to "kick their ass"?
it's a question i don't quite have the answer to myself - do you form the most effective governing coalition by going take-no-prisoners or by inviting people to defect?
of course, given the undemocratic way the senate is constituted and the option of filibuster, i'm not convinced that what "mandate" our new president comes in with will make a whole lot of difference when it comes to actually enacting a progressive agenda.
but at this point i think a cajoler will have more success than a fighter, which explains why i lean towards BHO.
John McCain Defends Bush's Iraq Strategy.
by jethropalerobber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:39:34 AM PDT
Not when it means selling out principles.
by johnnygunn on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:42:20 AM PDT
The solution to excessive partisanship is NOT unilateral disarmament by Democrats (or even by progressives).
Proud to support a principled and authentic progressive, Steve Novick for US Senate in 2008
by vard on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:49:55 AM PDT
by jethropalerobber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:54:22 AM PDT
I don't see any evidence that Obama is disarming in terms of his ability to hit back, if need be, to get elected. I don't see him giving up on policy issues or moving into Republican territory in terms of his actual platform or proposed actions or governance. He's not all that different in policy than the other Democrats.
Now if you are refering to "disarm" as in disarm opponents, well Obama seems to be pretty good at this. He is disarming when he talks to Iowa residents who often vote Republican. Remember, we relish the red meat rhetoric because of who we are and what we have been through. The general public may not, and probably does not. I would guess that many bloggers here on DailyKos would alienate or piss off many less politicized, more mainstream voters out there. For example, would the passionate and argumentative author of this diary resonate with a farmer in Iowa, or just piss him off? I wonder sometimes. If Obama speaks to people in a different tone and in a different way - if he disarms them, in other words - then that may be all for the best.
None of it really matters that much. I think the netroots have an inflated perspective of their role and importance when it comes to the primaries - we've been more successful in Congressional races, where a smaller group of dedicated partisans and a little seed money have more impact. There's plenty of other ways to organize communities and supporters than via the internet, and many of those will come into play in the primaries. I see the current Edwards Obama Clinton fight as a little experiment to gauge the current strength of labor, of independents, of women, and of alternative social networks in influencing a primary. We're simply not that relevant, no matter what we like to think.
Si los pendejos volaran, no se veria el sol.
by ivorybill on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:00:27 AM PDT
by jethropalerobber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:08:58 AM PDT
Communication is a two-way street. Obama hardly needs to convince the choir. He needs to show the many skeptics. And in that, he has come up way short.
by johnnygunn on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:14:19 AM PDT
Primary season is convincing the chancel and choir; then the preacher has to turn around in the general election and speak to those in the nave and those peeking in from the narthex. Obama is doing it a bit different, speaking with his back to the choir during primary season. Some in the choir are grumbling, others of them are shouting or trying to kick Obama in the butt to get him to turn around and give them what they think they are entitled to. So far, Obama is sticking to his message and chosen delivery.
by Foodle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:44:40 AM PDT
You better rest your voice a bit - 'Cause I don't even GO to that church.
by johnnygunn on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:48:02 AM PDT
Obama would have had the sixteen Repubs to override Bush's veto and we would be on our way out of Iraq. That was just a gimmick for a while and had no chance to work. Do you remember Obama supporters saying it could work? We have our own DINOs to beat up first to get them on side.
by pioneer111 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:47:57 AM PDT
but he'll have more leverage as president, obviously.
but what i'm really talking about is his relationship to the voters, not to other politicians.
by jethropalerobber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:11:38 AM PDT
Thanks for conceding the point. That is so rare that I'm not sure how to reply. Ultimately the POTUS has to kick ass to create change. Bush does even with his own side. Obama's approach is not for these times. It may be down the road, but we have a huge mess to clean up and even our Blue Dogs need some retraining. The voters will support the leader that supports them and gives them results. Both Edwards and Obama speak well, that is why I think Obama may be better in the future in calmer and less desperate times. IMHO.
by pioneer111 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:17:17 AM PDT
as i expressed in my first post, i'm not totally convinced what the best approach is.
of course i'm not sure the candidates' postures at this stage tell us much about how they would actually govern either :)
by jethropalerobber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:45:29 AM PDT
We need a clear partisan victory first, because all the Republicans understand is power.
For me, the Perfect Future is an Edwards/Obama ticket, having 8 years of Edwards with a Democratic Congress to not just roll back the Bush years, but actually move us forward with an unapologetically progressive agenda.
And then, 8 years of an Obama administration, where we can seek to work together in a more bi-partisan fashion.
It's far superior to extend that olive branch AFTER we've moved the center back to the center. Not now, when any compromise just moves the center from the very, very far right... to the far right.
The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. - John Adams
by Malacandra on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:48:19 AM PDT
by worldwideellen on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:29:20 AM PDT
Work has been insane.
by Malacandra on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:39:07 AM PDT
there is negotiation. There isn't any now. You nailed the priorities.
It's full of stars... T. Roosevelt: Great thoughts speak only to the thoughtful mind, but great actions speak to all mankind.
by Terra Mystica on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:34:15 AM PDT
Will Democratic control of the White House and the Congress engender enough respect and strength that the new President could move forward a Progressive agenda without resorting to Bush/Rove-style, in-your-face, cram-it-down-their-throats tactics? Could Bush have been a uniter and not a divider if he wasn't George W. Bush?
by Foodle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:44:31 AM PDT
Change simply doesn't occur with conciliation as a strategic first principle.
by Terra Mystica on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:10:10 PM PDT
And there will be no respect from the GOP until they fear irrelevancy and "permanent minority" status IMO. They need to bow, and beg like the dogs they are. Their corrupt 2-class two America days are numbered.
"There's been a little complication with my complication"
by dash888 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:40:34 PM PDT
Nailed it, Malacandra.
Own your rights. Know your life, and visa-versa
by SecondComing on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 01:32:49 PM PDT
I've been trying to figure out how to articulate that. You got it for me. Our concept of what "bipartisan" means right now is so right-tilted and unaligned with what people actually want. We need to get our representation way more representative before we engage in all this hands across the aisle stuff.
"Get informed, and let it change you."--wonderingmind42's chemistry professor
by DemocracyLover in NYC on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:58:25 PM PDT
Ultimately the POTUS has to kick ass to create change.
That is by no means a given. Frequently the more successful approach (whether in the White House or the Congress) is to separate the roles of Party Leader and Whip. Many Presidents have been quite successful while playing the conciliatory role of Leader of All the People and letting political advisors, Chief of Staff, and the like do the partisan ass kicking.
I wouldn't choose Obama for a Whip or partisan ass kicker role. That doesn't mean that he can't be a good or great President.
by Foodle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:36:00 AM PDT
but for these times we need Edwards and Obama after.
by pioneer111 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:42:36 PM PDT
The naked assertion that "Obama's approach is not for these times" is just not very persuasive. Why do you think that these times require that the roles of Leader and Partisan Ass Kicker be held by just one person?
by Foodle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 03:39:00 PM PDT
Both have the same goal: Going around the Blue Dogs and the Republicans and taking their case to the people. They have a different strategy is all. Obama is rebranding liberal positions as mainstream and Edwards is demonizing Wall Street. Both approaches could work, but there are disadvantages to both approaches as well.
My favorite is Social Security.
by DelRPCV on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:48:49 AM PDT
"cajole" or "work with" or "bargain" with or "cooperate" with the GOP, he gets his ass handed to him, handily.
And he always looks surprised. Think "Harry Reid".
Every dem who relies on a GOP member of congress to "see the light" or feel any shame at all for being hypocritical or mean-spirited or sanctimonious ends up with that same surprised look.
Cajoling has not worked. Incrementalism has not worked. Shaming has not worked. Cooperation has not worked.
And even if it could work, why hasn't Obama made it work in the last year? He hasn't succeeded in moving the GOP towards the dem agenda has he? Even with a majority the dems are getting every decent piece of legislation shoved back down their throats.
When the GOP was in charge, they didn't bother with "cajoling", and they rammed through shitass bill after shitass bill, and the dems got to look at bush's shiteating grin as he signed the horrors, one after the other. The dems looked upset - we had a deal!!! they cried. Bullshit. There is no dealing with these guys.
Why doesn't the GOP believe that "cajoling" is more successful than fighting? Because fighting worked!
We can't rely on cajoling, sorry.
"Balance" does not mean giving the same weight to a lie as you do to the truth.
by delphine on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:49:44 AM PDT
by jethropalerobber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:13:25 AM PDT
It's the same argument. How much time does bush spend cajoling the dems in congress to pass his agenda?
He just steps on their faces. Because he doesn't have to cajole to get what he wants, not even when the dems are the majority in congress.
The GOP does not believe in cajoling dems. Why do dems insist that cajoling the gop is a meaningful strategy??
by delphine on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:16:02 AM PDT
He crushes them too.
by pioneer111 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:18:15 AM PDT
I hardly think it wise to emulate him on any level. As has been recently shown, it's not a good long-range strategy.
by DelRPCV on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:50:33 AM PDT
Looks to be working just fine so far!
The MeatGrinder grinds on.
American jobs...sorry do