Daily Kos

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      •  Thanks (13+ / 0-)

        So, if I understand correctly, you folks think Markos and Paul Krugman are essentially evil.

        Thanks for letting me know I ought to be standing outside your camp.

        You might want to try RedState for union-bashing and progressive-bashing viewpoints.

        •  Looks like you don't understand correctly (29+ / 0-)

          But don't let that stop you.

          There has to be an invisible sun / That gives us hope when the whole day's done -Police

          by rightiswrong on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:39:14 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Glad (6+ / 0-)

            Glad you approve.

            Seriously, if Markos is too far to the left for you folks, there is always RedState...

            •  What nonsense! (25+ / 0-)

              Seriously, flubber get a grip...and how did Krugman get kitchen sinked with a comment about kos and poor impulse control?  

            •  Because i am not blinded by Markos worship... (10+ / 0-)

              .. and i don't think he walks on water, i can say he has been wrong more than he has been right over the years. He has had to correct himself as much as any person. He is only human. And the vast majority of good content does not come from him, it comes from users of the site he owns. He has not set the agenda, or how far left or right this site is for a long time.

              •  Of course you don't think (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Tamar

                Markos walks on water, the water would get too full. I learned here that those who feel Obama is the best top tier candidate thinks he walks on water.

                (And we know he does because when they aren't looking we all walk on water with him, that is when we aren't magically flying )

                You know they're right that a lot of writers on the left have hit Obama on a lot of points...on partial out of context quotes. Why would we do that to any of our candidates? Why can't we wait to attack them for attacking until we at least see the fuller story?
                I am use to the traditional media giving the partial story to stir up trouble...they did it to all of the candidates at to the wives of Edwards and Obama and gave them some nefarious twist. I sure learned to wait to get things in context.

                Why are so many willing to jump on these things now? I swear I'd feel the same if it was Clinton or Edwards under these strange attacks.

                •  Good! (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  joynow

                  as an undecided I support what you said, particularly the last 2 paragraphs.  I like all 3 of the top candidates and pretty much the whole slate of Democratic candidates.  I want to hear what they say, not someone's interpretation of it.
                  I have yet to hear what people mean when they complain about Obama's "right wing talking points."  I didn't agree with him about the 527, but didn't think what he said was right wing.  As for the comment about the elections in 2000 and 2004, I had the same interpretation as the diarist.  
                  The social security "in crisis" stuff was foolish and I think if he's truly worried about a crisis in social programs, Medicare is the one to worry about (and at least some part of its problem is the large amounts of $ going to the profit-making health industry -- wish he'd talk about that).  But none of that makes him right wing.
                  Nor does Hillary's terrible Iraq war authorization vote and her bad vote on Kyl-Lieberman make her a hawk.  After all, Edwards, Dodd and Biden all voted for that Iraq authorization.  And my 2 very liberal Senators -- Cardin & Mikulski voted the same way (not that I'm pleased with them), and Obama didn't vote.
                  So now I've probably aggravated the Edwards and Obama supporters by now labeling Hillary as a hawk, and the Edwards supporters by not labeling Obama as right wing.  
                  And now everyone will be mad at me because I'm going to criticize Gore (who I deeply admire) because he took some stands a VP that made me very angry at him -- word on the Hill during the disgusting "welfare reform" debate was that Gore pushed for Clinton to sign the bill that ended a guaranteed, if flawed, safety net to poor families.  
                  I don't call Gore a traitor to needy children for doing this, even if I was extremely angry with him (and Bill) at the time.

                  If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

                  by Tamar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:39:33 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  whoops -- the Cardin, Mikulski & Obama statement (0+ / 0-)

                    referred to the Kyl-Lieberman vote -- forgot to put the clause in there about that.

                    If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

                    by Tamar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:41:48 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  My issue with Gore was NAFTA (1+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    Tamar

                    I really wanted him to run this time but really wanted to hear what he thought of NAFTA now. (Some say he pushed it because it was his job but that's not enough of an excuse even if it's true)

                    I'd heard something else about welfare reform, the same story several times. I didn't want to just say it so I googled...and almost certainly found the source of the story. It was a book that the TV talking heads must have read

                    We see the yin and yang of their personalities over welfare reform. Bill considered vetoing the legislation, but Hillary pressured him not to. Hillary ``saw the political reality (reform was overwhelmingly popular) without the human dimensions,'' even though it was her liberal friends who were most opposed to the measure.

                    These friends included Marian Wright Edelman, for whom Clinton worked at the Children's Defense Fund, and her husband, Peter Edelman, a high-ranking official in the Department of Health and Human Services, who resigned in protest.

                    ``Bill was anguished,'' Shalala said. ``Hillary was not.''

                    None of them are perfect. I question Obama's vote on a NAFTA like trade deal although he speaks aginst NAFTA.

                    The Gore/Bush thing was sort of invented. Here is another report on the same talk

                       At a town hall meeting in rural Jefferson on Monday, undecided voter Bruce Banister, 56, asked Obama, "The last two presidential elections have been very dirty, and for me there have been very serious questions about whether George Bush was even legally elected. I want to know if we have another dirty election and you are the candidate, if you think it is dirty, will you back off like Gore and Kerry did or will you fight?"

                       Obama replied, "I intend to whoop 'em so good that it won't even be close and they can't steal the election."

                       After sustained cheers, laughter and applause, Obama added that he would hope to win over enough independents and Republicans in the general election that, "We aren't going to have 47 percent on one side, 47 percent on the other side, 5 percent in the middle and they all live in Ohio and Florida so you only campaign in two states."

                    I was bothered by Hillary's Iran vote...it was sort of my final straw on that choice though I know it was amended and that Wes Clark defended it.

                    I think the Iraq vote was political for most of the Dems but I can't hold it against everyone. Hillary at least voted for some of the amendments. Edwards voted against all of them.

                    People can change,,,but with Edwards I grew very uneasy as he talked about that vote on MTP

                    Discussing his mistaken vote he said how the "president of the United States has got to be honest and open",
                    He denied the vote was political...of course. I'm sure it was but don't think any want to be that open and honest.
                    But he talked about believing we were in danger and yet how he "had internal conflict because I was worried about what George Bush would do"
                    What? If he felt there was a real threat so felt he had to vote  for the authorization but didn't really trust bush he could have  voted for the amendments.

                    And both Hillary and Edwards should at least have read the classified NIE. Senator Graham pleaded that they all go read it before the vote in a speech on the Senate floor.

                    That's where one of the big Hillary problems come in. When pushed to answer whether she had read the classified version during the campaign she said she was fully briefed on it.

                    Well someone broke the law or she was lying. Even Graham in his plea that it be read could not say why, they weren't allowed to discuss it even with each other. They had to go to a secure room themselves, no aides. They couldn't bring anything to record it or even take notes. She was not briefed on it. I wished she hadn't said it.

                    Who can say how Obama would have voted despite his wonderful speech against the war. I'm sure the pressure was enormous to look tough enough.

                    I really like Obama's background. I like that the president of Harvard Law review went to a civil rights firm, like Hillary worked for children's defense after law school. That says something good.

                    I love Elizabeth Edwards and that is a point in Edwards favor and I like what he says but I don't trust him as much as others do.

                    The more I looked at everyone...well the top tier...I actually grew to be enthusiastic about Obama and I am not blind or delusional. I just looked a lot...have to love that google.

                    •  this is a really good summation of the issues (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      joynow

                      and the part about the vote on welfare reform -- well, one of those friends of Hillary's that you mention is my overall boss.  And I can tell you that the people here were devastated by Clinton signing the bill.  I went home and had a ceremonial removal of my "Clinton/Gore" bumper sticker.
                      Interesting that I heard it was Gore who pushed and you heard it was Hillary.  I guess we'll never know.
                      But I guess the good thing about Bush is that we now know that with all their flaws, the Dems running for President are all quite good.

                      If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.

                      by Tamar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:19:18 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Flubber, "The left" (15+ / 0-)

              ... doesn't mean holding the same viewpoint as you on every single issue.

              It means left of center.

              But, you know, there are some issues that I'm probably to the left of you on.

              And Kos.

              The nice thing about the Democratic Party is that we can all think for ourselves and, sometimes, discuss our differences in a civil fashion instead of accusing each other of being heretics.

            •  Unbelievable..... (3+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Overseas, baronzito, Haningchadus14

              You sound like a damn republican.  "You're either with us or against us".  Just because some of us don't agree with the way Kos interpreted a statement doesn't mean we belong at redstate.

              Idiot!

        •  Thanks for the 2 cents, Karl Rove n/t (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          snout
        •  You do not understand correctly (6+ / 0-)

          Do Markos and Paul Krugman think Barack Obama is evil?

          Ah...fuck it.  I'm losing brain cells already pondering your comment.

          Forget Hillary. It's McCain, people. Focus on McCain!!!

          by snout on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:52:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  no you don't understand correctly (6+ / 0-)

          Markos nor Krugman are evil and nobody called them that.  They just have an agenda.

          If you want to bash a candidate, there are plenty of vaild things to go after all of them on without making stuff up.

          Do you think George Stephanopoulos loves America as much as you?

          by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:08:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK, I'll bite. (2+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            sd4david, LibertySquirrel

            What's their agenda?

            •  Edwards (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              baronzito

              I like Edwards and there are many great diaries on him.  What I do disagree with is make stuff up with out any valid links or sourcing.  Having diary headings such as "Obama slams Gore", when Obama never did.  That is hackery and we all deserve better.

              The same people who trot out words such as "Cannibalism" or "Right Wing Talking Point" are doing exactly what they accuse others of doing.  

              Want to champion your candidate?  Great.  Just do it with credibility and integrity and not make stuff up out of whole cloth about other candidates.  That is called a troll diary.

              Do you think George Stephanopoulos loves America as much as you?

              by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:54:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  Wrong is not the same as evil (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          joynow, Tropical Depression

          "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." Sen Daniel Patrick Moynihan

          by atlliberal on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:20:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Personality cults are a bad thing... (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          LibertySquirrel

          ...everytime; but we're all vulnerable to it.

          And if challenging a viewpoint is too much for some folks, then exactly how are they better than the republicans.

          I really like this site; and I have a lot of admiration for what DailyKos has done- but the sycophant like hero worship I see growing on a daily basis around here is really the kind of behavior I would expect from a teenagers- not an adult.

          Just my opinion.

          •  Wait (0+ / 0-)

            I'm confused, are we talking about candidate-worship or Kos-worship?

            Barack Obama was one of them. West Virginia, Hillary, was one of us. —Pat Buchanan

            by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:33:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think I was pretty clear (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              joynow

              Personality cults are a bad thing... everytime; but we're all vulnerable to it.

              I didn't make any caveats for Obama, Kos or anyone else- it doesn't matter.

              But my comment was driven partly by the implication in an earlier post that either you agree with Kos all the time or somehow you are a republican.

              I'm sure you'll agree that's an assinine view to hold.

              •  Agreed. (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                taylormattd

                Same with disagreeing with Obama. Some are accusing Obama supporters (of which I guess I am one) of having maniacal absolutist streaks, and I guess some could, I don't know, but I don't, so I would appreciate that generalization being killed off.

                Barack Obama was one of them. West Virginia, Hillary, was one of us. —Pat Buchanan

                by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:02:02 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Um... no? (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          Overseas

          What the above said was that they believe he didn't source information as well as he should and the he was too quick to pull the trigger on his criticisms.  That isn't "evil", it's human, and we all do it, and they don't hesitate to point it out.

          Frankly talking about "evil" suggests a simplicity that does not exist in our politics.  By trying to label things as such you just create these caricatures  that do little but make partisans feel righteous.  They get to feel like they are heroes in a comic book rather than getting in touch with the reality of our system.  

          Kos isn't evil and neither is Krugman and I rather doubt anybody who posts here semi-routinely would claim such.  But just because they aren't evil doesn't mean that they aren't occasionally wrong and deserving of a verbal smack down.  That Kos let's that kind of stuff happen on his own site says a lot about him, but infallible he isn't.

          ---
          Some of my best friends are wrong

          by sterno on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:55:56 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Do you even know how to read? (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          joynow, baronzito

          Let's see:
          Some of us think Markos and Krugman are human and can be wrong.
          Flubber responds:
          So, if I understand correctly, you folks think Markos and Paul Krugman are essentially evil.
          I think you really need to work on your reading comprehension.

          What do you want me to do, to do for you to see you through... Lesh/Hunter

          by Mannabass on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:01:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •   Flubber, don't even get close to this. (0+ / 0-)

          This is so OT and out of control. You need to get out of here and stay out. You do not want to be associated with this.  

          Republicans don't have 60 votes, and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit.

          by dkmich on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:06:34 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Funny what happens (0+ / 0-)

          when people start questioning the tactics of the Messiah, flubber.

          Obama wouldn't have this Reverend Wright problem if Americans didn't have the idea that their president has to be a man of faith. --Jane Smiley

          by journalschism on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:31:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  hahahahahahahah!!! (0+ / 0-)

          LOLz
          OUt of hand ridiculous. I think you just took the cake on that one, friend.

    •  I'm still pissed about it (26+ / 0-)

      I feel really let down by this place. No, Obama isn't perfect but I believe his intentions are honorable. I'm not sure I can say the same for what goes on here anymore.

      There has to be an invisible sun / That gives us hope when the whole day's done -Police

      by rightiswrong on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:31:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree (6+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      snout, xyz, Wary, Potus2020, Foodle, malharden

      He should take just a little more time and care before hitting post, because like or not he is in a position that holds some influence. With that should come some responsibility to stop bashing folks.

      It makes you realize that even though we may despise the R's, you can see that some of what they say about the 'far left' and their impulse bashing noises is in fact true.

      (Ouch that hurts to say that.)

      Overthrow the Government ~Vote~

      by missliberties on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:46:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He told Ford, recall, to (0+ / 0-)

        stop bashing the Democrats, I think we all would be wise to understand that what we say does have some influence out to the public, after all anyone can, and does read this blog.

        When people read that Democrats on a Democratic message board are slamming 'Democrats' well, that looks as if the Democrats don't have any support from the base.

        just my thoughts.

        "People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"

        by Wary on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:27:02 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Has he addressed that issue yet? n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Do you think George Stephanopoulos loves America as much as you?

      by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:05:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Lost "cred" with who....You?!? (1+ / 1-)

      Recommended by:
      PaintyKat
      Hidden by:
      baronzito

      "icebergslim" is all pouty-faced now because Markos pointed out the truth about Obama, and now Markos has lost "cred?!"

      BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....

      Get over yourself.

      "One good test as to whether folks are doing interesting work is, Can they surprise me? And..when I read Daily Kos, it doesn't surprise me...." ~~Barack Obama

      by SignalSuzie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:29:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Pointed out the truth? (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        cville townie

        The idea that Obama had "bashed Gore" was a stretch even from the isolated quote presented. Kos usually has better quality control in deciding what goes on the front page. In the full context, it's as clear as could be that Obama wasn't bashing Gore. Kos got it wrong, which is fine with me, this particular issue isn't one that gets me worked up. But he's been taking a lot of pot-shots at various candidates lately, and I'm just wondering what's up with that. He agreed with the "they're all good candidates" diary, but he sort of acts like they're all crap, too.

        Barack Obama was one of them. West Virginia, Hillary, was one of us. —Pat Buchanan

        by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:42:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Uprated to offset ratings abuse (0+ / 0-)

        There is nothing trollworthy in this post.  Baranzito has clearly abused TRs in a candidate diary.

        Ratings are being pulled in accordance with Markos diary of last week.

        Perhaps you might want to pick up your TR and protect your ability to fully participate in the future.  This kind of trollrating is exactly what admins are noting and pulling rating abilities.  That means recs and TRs.

        PaintyKat

        WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats

        by PaintyKat on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:49:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't really understand the firestorm (5+ / 0-)

      over Kos' comments.

      Heck, aren't the screen writers still on strike? So, I assume that what appears on my computer screen these days must come from some lower-level hack, not the usual "Kos"

      So, please, be patient and everything will return to normal soon enough . . .

    •  Kos (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      malcolm, Bridge Master

      Was perfectly justified to voice his opinion. You really need to get over this if someone critisizes Obama they have done some grave crime crap. It makes you look ridiculous, and frankly like crybabys. I thought this was Kos's blog anyway!!

      You need to really develop a thicker skin. Obama is not perfect and will have to face critisizm and from what I have seen he and his supporters aren't going to respond very well to it.

      Support Heather Ryan in Kentucky's First!! http://www.actblue.com/page/americansforryan

      by RDemocrat on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:53:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, not quite (6+ / 0-)

      Believing Taylor Marsh was not the problem, it was spinning Obama's comment as a smear on Gore and Kerry -- rather than a general comment of the democratic situation in 2000 and especially 2004 -- that's the problem.

      And of course, it's not just kos either, there is (was?) also Digby, Ezra Klein, and Matthew Yglesias claiming the same bullshit. For shame.

    •  Funny. (0+ / 0-)

      I remember how astute Taylor Marsh (a vapid Heather, no argument there) was on here when she was fawning all over Obama a couple of months ago.

      This message has not been approved by the corporate media.

      by jre2k8 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:13:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What the hell are you (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      MichiganGirl

      talking about?  Taylor Marsh had nothing to do with the AP article Markos quoted.  Are you saying Obama didn't say what Markos said he did?  If you are then you are definitely wrong.  

      I suppose it is arguable whether he meant it as an attack on Gore and Kerry, but he definitely said it. And a lot of us who didn't necessarily see it as an attack on Gore (who did actually win the popular vote by half a million or so) and Kerry saw it as extremely naive.  

      The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

      by mikepridmore on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:33:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  oops (0+ / 0-)

        It was ABC news not the AP.  Jake Tapper quoted from Sunlen Miller, who is not the same as Taylor Marsh.

        The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman

        by mikepridmore on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:52:39 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Kos gained cred (4+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      denise b, zbctj52, WisePiper, dewley notid

      I've been critical of him before for some of his reasons for digging at candidates, but, in the end, his refusal to abandon his core principals of making a choice (or moving towards a choice) based not on emotional cheerleading or any sweep of enthusiasm for one particular candidate (which I admit I am caught up in at the moment) BUT based on a clear-eyed pragmatic drive towards putting the candidate in office who will do the most to overhaul the country in a progressive way.

      Look, I'm an Edwards supporter now (no attempt to hide that -- nor to hide my frustration with Kos for his money-focussed attacks on Edwards) but I like Obama and, if it comes down to it, will campaign for him with great enthusiasm.  

      But it is simply the case that if Obama wins Iowa, he will have won it by coming at Edwards and even Clinton FROM THE RIGHT.  He's attacking the more truly universal, progressive healthcare plans USING THE SAME TACK THE RIGHT USES.  He's attacking trial lawyers USING THE SAME TACK THE RIGHT USES.  He's attacking 527's -- specifically the ones that are the voice of the UNIONS -- USING THE SAME TACK THE RIGHT USES.  

      It may be smart politics.  It may win him the state.   But it's not putting into action the progressive views he claims to hold (and, for the record, I do believe that he does hold generally progressive views...but I worry that he undermines the fruition of those goals by attacking them the way the right would...not to mention that it draws into serious question his commitment to those goals).

      Kos doesn't say things I like about Edwards much, but I understand his reasoning.  Sometimes I think he's wrong.  But he's been consistantly level-headed.  And I respect that.

      •  No offense, but "the left" ain't perfect... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        LeftistDragonfly

        Flame away, but Obama's point all along is that no one person, party or solution is perfect. Remember Obama's post here at DKos several months back? He said the same thing. And his approach (which has so far proven relatively successful as a legislator) is to engage those with opposing viewpoints as if their points are valid rather than dismissing them out of hand (even if they're easily debunked). In that way, he brings people and groups into a conversation rather than immediately ostracizing them. Maybe some of their points come to fruition in a solution to a problem, maybe not. But at least they were all involved.

        :: Not every person in America wants health care coverage. They ought to have the choice to opt out or not even opt in in the first place. Obama's plan does that, the others' don't (or at least not to the same degree).

        :: Edwards will have to explain why he chose to use his skills as a lawyer to earn millions for himself rather than Obama's path of using his skills on more mundane, but just as vital, legal pursuits. Obama's claiming he's more progressive than Edwards in this light -- nothing "conservative" about it.

        :: And he's not attacking the voice of the unions so much as he's attacking Edwards for saying he wants those groups to stay out of it, yet a former high-level Edwards staffer is now heading up the 527's effort on Edwards' behalf. It's a valid point whether the opponent is in a primary or a general. If Edwards can't answer it now, he's going to get a sledge hammer with it in a few months (esp. considering he's taking public funds and his well will run dry at some point -- leaving him to rely on the 527s he decries).

        ....I agree Kos has been consistently level-headed, til this bit about the 2000 and 2004 quote.

        Maybe I'm just misreading it, but it sounds to me like Obama's talking about the hyperpartisanship and lack of Dem response to it (first with Gore, then with Kerry). As I recall, Kerry was roundly panned in these parts for going dark for a month while a bunch of lying a-holes were all over the news yapping falsehoods about his service in combat during Nam.

        (Full disclosure: I'm planning to vote for Obama and did some minor volunteer work for him here in Illinois by collecting petition signatures. But, I will gladly and whole-heartedly support whomever the rest of the party chooses in the coming weeks because it seems to me the distinctions between them are minor.)

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