View Story | 384 comments
Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)
to actually believe a vacumnless Taylor Marsh on an email she supposedly got from someone supposedly there? I mean, does sourcing information mean anything anymore?
This Week With Barack Obama. Because you need to stay informed.
by icebergslim on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:28:08 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
by pamelabrown on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:30:27 AM PDT
Thanks for letting me know I ought to be standing outside your camp.
You might want to try RedState for union-bashing and progressive-bashing viewpoints.
by flubber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:34:55 AM PDT
Fear will keep the local systems in line. -Grand Moff Tarkin Survivor Left Blogistan
by boran2 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:38:35 AM PDT
Nothing is more progressive than the argument of 1920's conservative prohibition activists, haven't you heard? Poor impulse control is the sign of the devil.
Oh, and the diary's assertion that Obama is looking "to run a national campaign for the hearts and minds of the American people" just reveals another right-wing talking point of his; a campaign for "hearts and minds" is what George W. Bush called for, which means that anyone here on in who refers to the term hearts in the same sentence as the word minds might as well be urinating on the grave of Paul Wellstone en route to relocating to Idaho to work for the re-election campaign of Larry Craig.
Do we really want another YEAR of trying to explain to everyone why the Democratic nominee voted to authorize the Iraq war before they were against it?
by ShadowSD on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:46:24 AM PDT
and paperless voting coming along, btw?
Are all votes unverifiable now?
Just wondering.
Thank You for not Impeaching the War Criminals and Terrorist Enablers.
by STOP George on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:39:04 AM PDT
But don't let that stop you.
There has to be an invisible sun / That gives us hope when the whole day's done -Police
by rightiswrong on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:39:14 AM PDT
Seriously, if Markos is too far to the left for you folks, there is always RedState...
by flubber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:49:08 AM PDT
Seriously, flubber get a grip...and how did Krugman get kitchen sinked with a comment about kos and poor impulse control?
by pamelabrown on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:54:23 AM PDT
There seem to be plenty of folks here who are now criticizing the entire left for being, well, too left.
So I thought I'd suggest RedState for those folks.
by flubber on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:04:09 AM PDT
"now the fun starts", he said nothing personal about any candidate, he wants to win and he wants to win big... how is that part of the right wing play book???
Confucius say: Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.
by bluecayuga on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:10:13 AM PDT
"keeps slashing at the left". I will wait. Now remember you don't have the luxury of not having back up or a valid source.
Do you think George Stephanopoulos loves America as much as you?
by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:10:28 AM PDT
That line was a slash at the Republicans..
How the heck are people misreading that as an attack on other Dems?
Support Temporary Workers' Rights - Change to Win! - -6.12, -4.77
by Scoopster on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:56:24 AM PDT
Diarist is a rabid Obama supporter ( There ARE other kinds) Diarist was/is upset over sites OWNER posting diaries that s/he deemed unfair to their candidate.
There are things that are GREAT about Obama. But taking cues from Joe Liebermans playbook by criticizing Dem constituencies isn't one of them.
Recent targets of Obama:
Teachers Unions Unions who use 527's for another candidate Non-Believers Trial lawyers
So if the biggest problems with this country that Obama notices are on the Democratic side, and I'm a Democrat, I certainely am not feeling the love.
"I'm not anti-_____________, I'm pro-Edwards."-me
by sd4david on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:44:42 AM PDT
...the biggest problems he sees on the Democratic side are on the Democratic side. He's not running for President. His opponents are not Republicans. The voters in the primaries are (sadly) not looking for someone who can fix the country, they are looking for the Democrat who can win the presidency. Since Democrats have failed their last two times at bat, they are going to want to know every candidate's opinion on why Democratic presidential candidates have been losing and why he or she won't lose for the same reasons.
Not feeling the love? If you are looking for unconditional love, get a puppy. Neither your country nor your party exist to love you. ("Ask not..." JFK.)
Right-wingers ask why liberals hate America and say that anyone who criticizes America is being unpatriotic. You seem to be asking why Obama hates the left and that anyone who criticizes the Democratic Party is using right-wing talking points. Same BS, different context.
by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:54:55 AM PDT
I do put my country FIRST.
But you don't need to stab other Democrats in the back. If you READ my comments, you would see that I think Obama could make his case WITHOUT attacking Democrats. And there are ways to criticize WITHOUT using the GOP frame. I don't need to "feel the love" as you so rudely put it. I need to feel that a Democrat supports the people who support Democrat officials. So why does Obama feel it is necessary to slam trial-lawyers? Overall they do alot of good for average Americans. But it's a right wing frame, so lets go with it.
Umm, Democrats WON in 2000, by 500,000 votes. So OUR message did resonate with the voters.
So believe in whatever bi-partisan BS YOU want. Because it hasn't WORKED for us.
by sd4david on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:46:19 AM PDT
Candidates are going to criticize. If you think the statement Markos quoted was an attack on Democrats, you are going to be hearing a lot of "attacks," so you better buckle up.
"feel the love" as you so rudely put it
Just quoting you.
by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:36:03 PM PDT
Not the author of this diary we're reading right now. He's undecided, as he said in his diary yesterday.
Because in all honesty, it is a dishonest smear of one of our Democratic candidates. And as someone who likes all of our Democratic candidates, including Obama, Edwards, and the like, and one who is still undecided on who to support, I was alarmed to see that headline.
In the face of impossible odds, people who love this country can change it.
by brklyngrl on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:46:03 AM PDT
This has nothing to do with whether Obama has slashed at the left or at anybody else. Flubber doesn't understand that and, consequently, is muddying the waters. If you don't understand it either, please don't try to help.
by Free Spirit on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:37:53 AM PDT
gatekeepers?
The gates I need to crash? If so it should be pretty easy frankly.
"Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric." Bertrand Russell
by Tom Enever on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:12:56 AM PDT
He really should have stayed in bed. I doubt he really believes that he was the last Republican allowed into the Democratic Party before they slammed the gate shut! :) We will have one hell of a hard time winning the general election w/o those "Independent" and disenfranchised voters knocking on that gate for Obama.
Catholic, white woman over 50 for OBAMA!! (endorsed 12/06)
by mjd in florida on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:48:14 AM PDT
.. that’s helping the entire left. The more we are seen to be wrong, the more the regular media can show that we are just as biased as they, the more we are undermined. Markos, Atrios, Ezra Klein, Matt Yglesias, Paul Krugman are not "the left". That may be opinion makers, but thats it.
by back2basics on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:14:54 AM PDT
It's over at her place
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:24:04 AM PDT
is probably a bit too strong. I'd go with opinion havers.
by Daaaaave on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:45:25 AM PDT
breaking news in little bits since 1981
by mswaine on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:42:12 AM PDT
Obama is the only one proposing a major progressive increase in Social Security taxes on the affluent, and for this he is a Republican tool (ala Krugman?) This is just nonsense. Just because Republicans tried to use social security solvency to privatize it doesn't mean that social security solvency has become a Republican issue.
Also-since when did campaign finance reform become a Republican issue? Is Obama's championing of that also a betrayal of progressive values?
Obama took a real stand against the war in 2003. It the others who've got to justify their real progressive nature, despite the flavor-of-the-year position paper.
And the most leftist candidate, Kucinich, has effectively now endorsed Obama in Iowa.
I suggest the commentariate return to the realities of advancing progressive values in the real world.
by Tom0063 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:14:15 AM PDT
No one said their complaint was with Obama asking for an increase n the affluent. Please don't think you can win an argument by mischaracterizing what people have said.
It is Obama's use of "Social Security is in crisis" - style language that has people like me upset. It only reinforces the right's attacks on Social Security (and by extension government itself. Social Security is NOT in crisis, is completely stable, does not have a problem, and is the greatest government program in American history. (I happen to agree with his proposal to increase the payroll tax on the wealthy -- I would remove the cap entirely.)
More recently his attacks on trial lawyers and progressive allies like Krugman that have many of us concerned.
His heart is in the right place, he shouldn';t be trying to gain the acceptance of the Broders, etc. with this kind of hat-tipping to right-wing-generated conventional wisdom.
-- Seeing The Forest -- Who is our economy FOR, anyway?
by davej on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:51:37 AM PDT
If Obama uses the popular (not Republican) perception of Social Security in crisis as a tool to progressively tax and redistribute weath, more power to him.
Most people believe in Social Security insolvency, and not due to Republican manipulaitons, but due to the fact of the retirement of the baby boomers. The solvency of Social Securtiy is counter-intuitive, and there may be statistics supporting it, but Krugman and others has done a pretty poor job making the solvency statistics make simple intuitive sense, although he focused on the issue extensively in 2004-2005.
He might work harder on building Democratic message on this issue, rather than focus on tearing down a leading Democrat working to redistribute wealth.
It all smacks of partisan tactics or (in a best case scenario) policy-wonk blindness rather than real concern.
by Tom0063 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:23:14 AM PDT
...dude...dude. With us or against us attitude is bullshit. Just stop it.
Obama!
by MichaelPH on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:46:42 AM PDT
.. and i don't think he walks on water, i can say he has been wrong more than he has been right over the years. He has had to correct himself as much as any person. He is only human. And the vast majority of good content does not come from him, it comes from users of the site he owns. He has not set the agenda, or how far left or right this site is for a long time.
by back2basics on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:02:42 AM PDT
Markos walks on water, the water would get too full. I learned here that those who feel Obama is the best top tier candidate thinks he walks on water.
(And we know he does because when they aren't looking we all walk on water with him, that is when we aren't magically flying )
You know they're right that a lot of writers on the left have hit Obama on a lot of points...on partial out of context quotes. Why would we do that to any of our candidates? Why can't we wait to attack them for attacking until we at least see the fuller story? I am use to the traditional media giving the partial story to stir up trouble...they did it to all of the candidates at to the wives of Edwards and Obama and gave them some nefarious twist. I sure learned to wait to get things in context.
Why are so many willing to jump on these things now? I swear I'd feel the same if it was Clinton or Edwards under these strange attacks.
by joynow on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:55:03 AM PDT
as an undecided I support what you said, particularly the last 2 paragraphs. I like all 3 of the top candidates and pretty much the whole slate of Democratic candidates. I want to hear what they say, not someone's interpretation of it. I have yet to hear what people mean when they complain about Obama's "right wing talking points." I didn't agree with him about the 527, but didn't think what he said was right wing. As for the comment about the elections in 2000 and 2004, I had the same interpretation as the diarist. The social security "in crisis" stuff was foolish and I think if he's truly worried about a crisis in social programs, Medicare is the one to worry about (and at least some part of its problem is the large amounts of $ going to the profit-making health industry -- wish he'd talk about that). But none of that makes him right wing. Nor does Hillary's terrible Iraq war authorization vote and her bad vote on Kyl-Lieberman make her a hawk. After all, Edwards, Dodd and Biden all voted for that Iraq authorization. And my 2 very liberal Senators -- Cardin & Mikulski voted the same way (not that I'm pleased with them), and Obama didn't vote. So now I've probably aggravated the Edwards and Obama supporters by now labeling Hillary as a hawk, and the Edwards supporters by not labeling Obama as right wing. And now everyone will be mad at me because I'm going to criticize Gore (who I deeply admire) because he took some stands a VP that made me very angry at him -- word on the Hill during the disgusting "welfare reform" debate was that Gore pushed for Clinton to sign the bill that ended a guaranteed, if flawed, safety net to poor families. I don't call Gore a traitor to needy children for doing this, even if I was extremely angry with him (and Bill) at the time.
If, in our efforts to win, we become as dishonest as our opponents on the right, we don't deserve to triumph.
by Tamar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:39:33 AM PDT
referred to the Kyl-Lieberman vote -- forgot to put the clause in there about that.
by Tamar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 11:41:48 AM PDT
I really wanted him to run this time but really wanted to hear what he thought of NAFTA now. (Some say he pushed it because it was his job but that's not enough of an excuse even if it's true)
I'd heard something else about welfare reform, the same story several times. I didn't want to just say it so I googled...and almost certainly found the source of the story. It was a book that the TV talking heads must have read
We see the yin and yang of their personalities over welfare reform. Bill considered vetoing the legislation, but Hillary pressured him not to. Hillary ``saw the political reality (reform was overwhelmingly popular) without the human dimensions,'' even though it was her liberal friends who were most opposed to the measure. These friends included Marian Wright Edelman, for whom Clinton worked at the Children's Defense Fund, and her husband, Peter Edelman, a high-ranking official in the Department of Health and Human Services, who resigned in protest. ``Bill was anguished,'' Shalala said. ``Hillary was not.''
We see the yin and yang of their personalities over welfare reform. Bill considered vetoing the legislation, but Hillary pressured him not to. Hillary ``saw the political reality (reform was overwhelmingly popular) without the human dimensions,'' even though it was her liberal friends who were most opposed to the measure.
These friends included Marian Wright Edelman, for whom Clinton worked at the Children's Defense Fund, and her husband, Peter Edelman, a high-ranking official in the Department of Health and Human Services, who resigned in protest.
``Bill was anguished,'' Shalala said. ``Hillary was not.''
None of them are perfect. I question Obama's vote on a NAFTA like trade deal although he speaks aginst NAFTA.
The Gore/Bush thing was sort of invented. Here is another report on the same talk
At a town hall meeting in rural Jefferson on Monday, undecided voter Bruce Banister, 56, asked Obama, "The last two presidential elections have been very dirty, and for me there have been very serious questions about whether George Bush was even legally elected. I want to know if we have another dirty election and you are the candidate, if you think it is dirty, will you back off like Gore and Kerry did or will you fight?" Obama replied, "I intend to whoop 'em so good that it won't even be close and they can't steal the election." After sustained cheers, laughter and applause, Obama added that he would hope to win over enough independents and Republicans in the general election that, "We aren't going to have 47 percent on one side, 47 percent on the other side, 5 percent in the middle and they all live in Ohio and Florida so you only campaign in two states."
At a town hall meeting in rural Jefferson on Monday, undecided voter Bruce Banister, 56, asked Obama, "The last two presidential elections have been very dirty, and for me there have been very serious questions about whether George Bush was even legally elected. I want to know if we have another dirty election and you are the candidate, if you think it is dirty, will you back off like Gore and Kerry did or will you fight?"
Obama replied, "I intend to whoop 'em so good that it won't even be close and they can't steal the election."
After sustained cheers, laughter and applause, Obama added that he would hope to win over enough independents and Republicans in the general election that, "We aren't going to have 47 percent on one side, 47 percent on the other side, 5 percent in the middle and they all live in Ohio and Florida so you only campaign in two states."
I was bothered by Hillary's Iran vote...it was sort of my final straw on that choice though I know it was amended and that Wes Clark defended it.
I think the Iraq vote was political for most of the Dems but I can't hold it against everyone. Hillary at least voted for some of the amendments. Edwards voted against all of them.
People can change,,,but with Edwards I grew very uneasy as he talked about that vote on MTP
Discussing his mistaken vote he said how the "president of the United States has got to be honest and open", He denied the vote was political...of course. I'm sure it was but don't think any want to be that open and honest. But he talked about believing we were in danger and yet how he "had internal conflict because I was worried about what George Bush would do" What? If he felt there was a real threat so felt he had to vote for the authorization but didn't really trust bush he could have voted for the amendments.
And both Hillary and Edwards should at least have read the classified NIE. Senator Graham pleaded that they all go read it before the vote in a speech on the Senate floor.
That's where one of the big Hillary problems come in. When pushed to answer whether she had read the classified version during the campaign she said she was fully briefed on it.
Well someone broke the law or she was lying. Even Graham in his plea that it be read could not say why, they weren't allowed to discuss it even with each other. They had to go to a secure room themselves, no aides. They couldn't bring anything to record it or even take notes. She was not briefed on it. I wished she hadn't said it.
Who can say how Obama would have voted despite his wonderful speech against the war. I'm sure the pressure was enormous to look tough enough.
I really like Obama's background. I like that the president of Harvard Law review went to a civil rights firm, like Hillary worked for children's defense after law school. That says something good.
I love Elizabeth Edwards and that is a point in Edwards favor and I like what he says but I don't trust him as much as others do.
The more I looked at everyone...well the top tier...I actually grew to be enthusiastic about Obama and I am not blind or delusional. I just looked a lot...have to love that google.
by joynow on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:51:48 PM PDT
and the part about the vote on welfare reform -- well, one of those friends of Hillary's that you mention is my overall boss. And I can tell you that the people here were devastated by Clinton signing the bill. I went home and had a ceremonial removal of my "Clinton/Gore" bumper sticker. Interesting that I heard it was Gore who pushed and you heard it was Hillary. I guess we'll never know. But I guess the good thing about Bush is that we now know that with all their flaws, the Dems running for President are all quite good.
by Tamar on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 02:19:18 PM PDT
... doesn't mean holding the same viewpoint as you on every single issue.
It means left of center.
But, you know, there are some issues that I'm probably to the left of you on.
And Kos.
The nice thing about the Democratic Party is that we can all think for ourselves and, sometimes, discuss our differences in a civil fashion instead of accusing each other of being heretics.
by state29 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:11:09 AM PDT
You sound like a damn republican. "You're either with us or against us". Just because some of us don't agree with the way Kos interpreted a statement doesn't mean we belong at redstate.
Idiot!
by lrhoke on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:54:26 AM PDT
Obama-Sebelius `08
by Potus2020 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:50:54 AM PDT
Do Markos and Paul Krugman think Barack Obama is evil?
Ah...fuck it. I'm losing brain cells already pondering your comment.
Forget Hillary. It's McCain, people. Focus on McCain!!!
by snout on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:52:16 AM PDT
Markos nor Krugman are evil and nobody called them that. They just have an agenda.
If you want to bash a candidate, there are plenty of vaild things to go after all of them on without making stuff up.
by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:08:46 AM PDT
What's their agenda?
by Joe Buck on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:56:59 AM PDT
I like Edwards and there are many great diaries on him. What I do disagree with is make stuff up with out any valid links or sourcing. Having diary headings such as "Obama slams Gore", when Obama never did. That is hackery and we all deserve better.
The same people who trot out words such as "Cannibalism" or "Right Wing Talking Point" are doing exactly what they accuse others of doing.
Want to champion your candidate? Great. Just do it with credibility and integrity and not make stuff up out of whole cloth about other candidates. That is called a troll diary.
by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:54:48 AM PDT
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." Sen Daniel Patrick Moynihan
by atlliberal on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:20:39 AM PDT
...don't understand Candidate Fever©.
by MichaelPH on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:39:05 AM PDT
I can't understand how candidates who were perfectly reasonable a few months ago are now the personification of evil. Remember when we were bragging about how many good choices we had? I don't remember it getting this bad in 2004.
by atlliberal on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:43:37 AM PDT
...everytime; but we're all vulnerable to it.
And if challenging a viewpoint is too much for some folks, then exactly how are they better than the republicans.
I really like this site; and I have a lot of admiration for what DailyKos has done- but the sycophant like hero worship I see growing on a daily basis around here is really the kind of behavior I would expect from a teenagers- not an adult.
Just my opinion.
by patriot spear on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:27:29 AM PDT
I'm confused, are we talking about candidate-worship or Kos-worship?
Barack Obama was one of them. West Virginia, Hillary, was one of us. —Pat Buchanan
by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:33:54 AM PDT
Personality cults are a bad thing... everytime; but we're all vulnerable to it.
I didn't make any caveats for Obama, Kos or anyone else- it doesn't matter.
But my comment was driven partly by the implication in an earlier post that either you agree with Kos all the time or somehow you are a republican.
I'm sure you'll agree that's an assinine view to hold.
by patriot spear on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:52:05 AM PDT
Same with disagreeing with Obama. Some are accusing Obama supporters (of which I guess I am one) of having maniacal absolutist streaks, and I guess some could, I don't know, but I don't, so I would appreciate that generalization being killed off.
by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:02:02 AM PDT
But he's not the monster from Cloverfield either.
I guess we'll all just have to accept Humor is dead at Daily Kos until the primaries are over.
by patriot spear on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:21:57 AM PDT
What the above said was that they believe he didn't source information as well as he should and the he was too quick to pull the trigger on his criticisms. That isn't "evil", it's human, and we all do it, and they don't hesitate to point it out.
Frankly talking about "evil" suggests a simplicity that does not exist in our politics. By trying to label things as such you just create these caricatures that do little but make partisans feel righteous. They get to feel like they are heroes in a comic book rather than getting in touch with the reality of our system.
Kos isn't evil and neither is Krugman and I rather doubt anybody who posts here semi-routinely would claim such. But just because they aren't evil doesn't mean that they aren't occasionally wrong and deserving of a verbal smack down. That Kos let's that kind of stuff happen on his own site says a lot about him, but infallible he isn't.
--- Some of my best friends are wrong
by sterno on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:55:56 AM PDT
Let's see: Some of us think Markos and Krugman are human and can be wrong. Flubber responds: So, if I understand correctly, you folks think Markos and Paul Krugman are essentially evil. I think you really need to work on your reading comprehension.
What do you want me to do, to do for you to see you through... Lesh/Hunter
by Mannabass on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:01:11 AM PDT
This is so OT and out of control. You need to get out of here and stay out. You do not want to be associated with this.
Republicans don't have 60 votes, and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit.
by dkmich on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:06:34 AM PDT
Really, this is THE most offensive statement I've seen on this site in a while.
"You need to get out of here and stay out"
by sd4david on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:47:11 AM PDT
when people start questioning the tactics of the Messiah, flubber.
Obama wouldn't have this Reverend Wright problem if Americans didn't have the idea that their president has to be a man of faith. --Jane Smiley
by journalschism on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:31:43 AM PDT
LOLz OUt of hand ridiculous. I think you just took the cake on that one, friend.
by MichaelPH on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:36:20 AM PDT
I feel really let down by this place. No, Obama isn't perfect but I believe his intentions are honorable. I'm not sure I can say the same for what goes on here anymore.
by rightiswrong on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:31:24 AM PDT
the coop", as my Ia. grandma used to say. Truth here is increasingly being replaced by dishonest spin. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
by dotster on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:17:51 AM PDT
People here are just so tuned in, wound up, and hungry for the big win. You notice it a lot more as the website's viewership and influence grows.
I don't blame anyone either for feeling that way. I feel the same after having to endure all these scumbag Republicans and a good number of Dems who act like they don't have a pair.
So everyone - step back for a moment and re-read the line in question again in the context that it's aimed at the Republican Party specifically. It makes much more sense that way given events during the past few elections.
by Scoopster on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:08:11 AM PDT
There is waaaaay too much candidate polarization.
Peace.
McCain: Same as W, only older.
by 4Freedom on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:43:21 AM PDT
He should take just a little more time and care before hitting post, because like or not he is in a position that holds some influence. With that should come some responsibility to stop bashing folks.
It makes you realize that even though we may despise the R's, you can see that some of what they say about the 'far left' and their impulse bashing noises is in fact true.
(Ouch that hurts to say that.)
Overthrow the Government ~Vote~
by missliberties on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:46:27 AM PDT
stop bashing the Democrats, I think we all would be wise to understand that what we say does have some influence out to the public, after all anyone can, and does read this blog.
When people read that Democrats on a Democratic message board are slamming 'Democrats' well, that looks as if the Democrats don't have any support from the base.
just my thoughts.
"People should not vote for any Republican, because they're dangerous, dishonest and self-serving"
by Wary on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:27:02 AM PDT
Bashing Democrats is wrong when Ford does it. It is civic discussion when Kos does it. Didn't you get the memo?
by Mannabass on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:04:37 AM PDT
by MadAsHellMaddie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:05:18 AM PDT
"icebergslim" is all pouty-faced now because Markos pointed out the truth about Obama, and now Markos has lost "cred?!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....
Get over yourself.
"One good test as to whether folks are doing interesting work is, Can they surprise me? And..when I read Daily Kos, it doesn't surprise me...." ~~Barack Obama
by SignalSuzie on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:29:29 AM PDT
The idea that Obama had "bashed Gore" was a stretch even from the isolated quote presented. Kos usually has better quality control in deciding what goes on the front page. In the full context, it's as clear as could be that Obama wasn't bashing Gore. Kos got it wrong, which is fine with me, this particular issue isn't one that gets me worked up. But he's been taking a lot of pot-shots at various candidates lately, and I'm just wondering what's up with that. He agreed with the "they're all good candidates" diary, but he sort of acts like they're all crap, too.
by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:42:35 AM PDT
There is nothing trollworthy in this post. Baranzito has clearly abused TRs in a candidate diary.
Ratings are being pulled in accordance with Markos diary of last week.
Perhaps you might want to pick up your TR and protect your ability to fully participate in the future. This kind of trollrating is exactly what admins are noting and pulling rating abilities. That means recs and TRs.
PaintyKat
WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats
by PaintyKat on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:49:24 PM PDT
over Kos' comments.
Heck, aren't the screen writers still on strike? So, I assume that what appears on my computer screen these days must come from some lower-level hack, not the usual "Kos"
So, please, be patient and everything will return to normal soon enough . . .
by Roadbed Guy on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:34:56 AM PDT
Was perfectly justified to voice his opinion. You really need to get over this if someone critisizes Obama they have done some grave crime crap. It makes you look ridiculous, and frankly like crybabys. I thought this was Kos's blog anyway!!
You need to really develop a thicker skin. Obama is not perfect and will have to face critisizm and from what I have seen he and his supporters aren't going to respond very well to it.
Support Heather Ryan in Kentucky's First!! http://www.actblue.com/page/americansforryan
by RDemocrat on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:53:52 AM PDT
People complained. That's pretty much how I'd expect a blog to work.
by Michael D on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:44:28 AM PDT
Believing Taylor Marsh was not the problem, it was spinning Obama's comment as a smear on Gore and Kerry -- rather than a general comment of the democratic situation in 2000 and especially 2004 -- that's the problem.
And of course, it's not just kos either, there is (was?) also Digby, Ezra Klein, and Matthew Yglesias claiming the same bullshit. For shame.
by Nautilator on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 07:59:54 AM PDT
I remember how astute Taylor Marsh (a vapid Heather, no argument there) was on here when she was fawning all over Obama a couple of months ago.
This message has not been approved by the corporate media.
by jre2k8 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:13:04 AM PDT
talking about? Taylor Marsh had nothing to do with the AP article Markos quoted. Are you saying Obama didn't say what Markos said he did? If you are then you are definitely wrong.
I suppose it is arguable whether he meant it as an attack on Gore and Kerry, but he definitely said it. And a lot of us who didn't necessarily see it as an attack on Gore (who did actually win the popular vote by half a million or so) and Kerry saw it as extremely naive.
The ...Bushies... don't make policies to deal with problems. ...It's all about how can we spin what's happening out there to do what we want to do. Krugman
by mikepridmore on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:33:51 AM PDT
It was ABC news not the AP. Jake Tapper quoted from Sunlen Miller, who is not the same as Taylor Marsh.
by mikepridmore on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:52:39 AM PDT
I've been critical of him before for some of his reasons for digging at candidates, but, in the end, his refusal to abandon his core principals of making a choice (or moving towards a choice) based not on emotional cheerleading or any sweep of enthusiasm for one particular candidate (which I admit I am caught up in at the moment) BUT based on a clear-eyed pragmatic drive towards putting the candidate in office who will do the most to overhaul the country in a progressive way.
Look, I'm an Edwards supporter now (no attempt to hide that -- nor to hide my frustration with Kos for his money-focussed attacks on Edwards) but I like Obama and, if it comes down to it, will campaign for him with great enthusiasm.
But it is simply the case that if Obama wins Iowa, he will have won it by coming at Edwards and even Clinton FROM THE RIGHT. He's attacking the more truly universal, progressive healthcare plans USING THE SAME TACK THE RIGHT USES. He's attacking trial lawyers USING THE SAME TACK THE RIGHT USES. He's attacking 527's -- specifically the ones that are the voice of the UNIONS -- USING THE SAME TACK THE RIGHT USES.
It may be smart politics. It may win him the state. But it's not putting into action the progressive views he claims to hold (and, for the record, I do believe that he does hold generally progressive views...but I worry that he undermines the fruition of those goals by attacking them the way the right would...not to mention that it draws into serious question his commitment to those goals).
Kos doesn't say things I like about Edwards much, but I understand his reasoning. Sometimes I think he's wrong. But he's been consistantly level-headed. And I respect that.
by Muleskinner on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 08:48:58 AM PDT
Flame away, but Obama's point all along is that no one person, party or solution is perfect. Remember Obama's post here at DKos several months back? He said the same thing. And his approach (which has so far proven relatively successful as a legislator) is to engage those with opposing viewpoints as if their points are valid rather than dismissing them out of hand (even if they're easily debunked). In that way, he brings people and groups into a conversation rather than immediately ostracizing them. Maybe some of their points come to fruition in a solution to a problem, maybe not. But at least they were all involved.
:: Not every person in America wants health care coverage. They ought to have the choice to opt out or not even opt in in the first place. Obama's plan does that, the others' don't (or at least not to the same degree).
:: Edwards will have to explain why he chose to use his skills as a lawyer to earn millions for himself rather than Obama's path of using his skills on more mundane, but just as vital, legal pursuits. Obama's claiming he's more progressive than Edwards in this light -- nothing "conservative" about it.
:: And he's not attacking the voice of the unions so much as he's attacking Edwards for saying he wants those groups to stay out of it, yet a former high-level Edwards staffer is now heading up the 527's effort on Edwards' behalf. It's a valid point whether the opponent is in a primary or a general. If Edwards can't answer it now, he's going to get a sledge hammer with it in a few months (esp. considering he's taking public funds and his well will run dry at some point -- leaving him to rely on the 527s he decries).
....I agree Kos has been consistently level-headed, til this bit about the 2000 and 2004 quote.
Maybe I'm just misreading it, but it sounds to me like Obama's talking about the hyperpartisanship and lack of Dem response to it (first with Gore, then with Kerry). As I recall, Kerry was roundly panned in these parts for going dark for a month while a bunch of lying a-holes were all over the news yapping falsehoods about his service in combat during Nam.
(Full disclosure: I'm planning to vote for Obama and did some minor volunteer work for him here in Illinois by collecting petition signatures. But, I will gladly and whole-heartedly support whomever the rest of the party chooses in the coming weeks because it seems to me the distinctions between them are minor.)
-4.00, -5.79 | Visit Illinois Reason.
by thesill on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:12:06 AM PDT
wide narrow
View Story | 384 comments