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n/t
The true Ben Franklin quote from Poor Richard's Almanack is "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."
by Andy30tx on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:00:00 AM PDT
Are you very sure you got it right? This vote would not be consistent with most of his stated positions. I think an explaination from Mr. Webb is in order. I'll call his office, now.
No matter what happens ... somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." Dave Barry
by Granny Doc on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:03:16 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
I tend to trust Josh Marshall but I'd appreciate you checking the math and getting back.
by Andy30tx on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:07:25 AM PDT
noted that while Obama was there and voted against immunity, Clinton was absent.
that out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope. - Barack Obama
by acuppajo on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:44:17 AM PDT
yup. Obama/Feingold, Obama/Edwards or Obama/Gore. (Edwards would make a kickin AG imho.)
Go Barack Obama
by concerned on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:49:10 AM PDT
Democratic Candidate for US Senate, WI (2012) Masel4senate
by ben masel on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:51:26 AM PDT
It is at the "Kohl" center and Kohl also voted for immunity. I'd protest the namesake of the arena Obama is speaking in. You have my vote in 2012.
I have nothing to say.
by calistan on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:02:33 AM PDT
Votes to cover Bush's criminal ass. I want my money back!
Votes to cover Bush's criminal ass.
I want my money back!
Then at the same time he's talking about suing Bush over a permanent presence in Iraq? Schizophrenic?
by Kdoug on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:04:39 AM PDT
Republicans don't have 60 votes, and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit.
by dkmich on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:41:56 PM PDT
He is a classic Republican, before they turned gooper, Much better than the guy he beat, but if we ever want to get anywhere he needs to be just a placeholder till we get a real liberal.
"I said, 'wait a minute, Chester, you know I'm a peaceful man'". Robbie Robertson
by NearlyNormal on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:31:44 PM PDT
as Vice President. They have no power in normal administrations.
The law is slacked and judgment doth never go forth: the wicked compass about the righteous and wrong judgment proceedeth - Habakkuk 1:4
by vox humana on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:44:31 PM PDT
real executive power. Shudder at the thought.
by NearlyNormal on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:55:34 PM PDT
dolphin777
by dolphin777 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:40:57 PM PDT
Come over to Europe and have a look at some of ours...
The Prince of Peace has been usurped by the God of War.
by Spoc42 on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 02:21:06 AM PDT
by NearlyNormal on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:45:02 AM PDT
by dolphin777 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:39:46 PM PDT
And I liked Jim too. This is a disappointment.
"See if you can guess what I am now?" -John "Bluto" Blutarsky
by Bonsai66 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:42:04 PM PDT
his 'lawsuit' will go nowhere, and he knows it, whereas this bill in the Senate today will become the law of the land, and he knows that as well.
Do we have any figures on how scared they are? ~ MPFC's 'Mr. Neutron' episode
by itsbenj on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:54:26 PM PDT
remedy for the K/L BS which said in essence that that sense of the senate was not an authorization to go to war. Yes HRC hid behind it, but that doesn't lesson the importance of it.
Now, for some odd reason I trust this guy. At first, I was disappointed last August like everyone else. But , he's been around awhile. I also am a realist in that no incumbent has been perfect. There is something that someone will find not to like about all of them. When the NIE came out against Bush's war plans, I realized Webb probably was in touch with the people who really have to deal with this and just maybe he knows more about this than we do.
I humbly suggest that with the the race between Obama and HRC still not decided and McCain and both of them close enough to swing on just about anything closer to the election, that people ask questions like , what else may have caused him to vote yes before tossing him out.
He may just be needed to close out this election. Because if you think the VP choice is not going to make a difference in this General, your in La La land. Seen anyone make commitments of reducing the powers of the VP yet? Hey how about rolling back all those executive orders?
If you think the telecoms are not going to get immunity with Bush still in office and the Dems we have, your in La La land. Bush will veto. Dems will cave. Happens every time. Oh wait, Bush allowed for 1/2 a percent increase for the troops. Probably figured that $6.00-$12 a month wasn't worth getting worked up about.
The telecoms are getting immunity. They aren't even worried. This is Kabuki theatre. There will be something else that will come along to capture every one's attention and this one will be gone. One Veto, Two Vetos, Immunity. I'll be surprised and amazed if they get to two.
Maybe Jim realized this and decided this was just a waste of fricking time knowing his fellow Democrats.
As far as his staffer, that was inexcusable. I have registered a complaint
I'm not sure why people are wasting time with an issue that has already been decided. It's an election year so sure they are going to make it look like a bitter fight for the base. But they are not going to allow open season on telecoms who control the communications infrastructure of the US. Forget about it.
Support Col Hackworth's watchdog group for the troops with money or a sign
by Dburn on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:08:42 PM PDT
TRUE COLORS.
We did such a good job supporting the WRONG KIND OF DEMOCRAT.
Should of had Macaca Allen. At least you would know the snake.
Many people did not care for Pat Buchanan's speech; it probably sounded better in the original German."
by Flippant on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:14:18 PM PDT
one step at a time don't lose sight of the bigger goals
When we say worst president in history, we're including the next 200 years as well
by askyron on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 05:08:46 PM PDT
he's got the Reid virus
by ron phelps on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:13:40 PM PDT
by concerned on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:52:42 AM PDT
Wonder if anyone else has an explanation.
Let's get some Democracy for America
by murphy on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:58:58 AM PDT
right after taking office .. so that may be it .. I doubt it was because he is afraid of facing the music
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:00:37 AM PDT
who no longer had a place in the Republican party. Our party has lots of Repub lite within its ranks. Webb is better than Allen but he is not a real Democrat.
That is something we need to pay attention to in leadership positions. Clark is the same in my book. Good person but not really supporting the people's agenda.
Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:13:35 AM PDT
When I made that point, people criticized me of trying to drum out of the party former Republicans like Kos or random other people who voted for Reagan but are now Democrats.
It's not that at all. I'm sure Kos isn't going to switch back to the Republicans in this life time. If the national GOP cleans up its act a bit, or the Democrats have a downswing, I worry Webb will go back to their party.
by brittain33 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:23:55 AM PDT
Well that explains a lot. And makes sense, given his military background.
Women's History Month: The 19th Amendment
by belly on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:38:16 AM PDT
And makes sense, given his military background.
those with a military background tend to be Democrats. In case you haven't noticed the GOP is prowar, not proservice.
it tastes like burning...
by eastvan on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:26:09 PM PDT
...the military is a lot like any large corporation. Management tends to be Republican, workers tend to be Democrats.
by Free Spirit on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:24:21 PM PDT
Clark, have turned out to birds of an entirely different feather.
by eastvan on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:04:25 PM PDT
In the three previous polls, nearly 60 percent of the respondents identified themselves as Republicans, which is about double the population as a whole. But in this year’s poll (2006), only 46 percent of the military respondents said they were Republicans. However, there was not a big gain in those identifying themselves as Democrats — a figure that consistently hovers around 16 percent. The big gain came among people who said they were independents.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
by deathsinger on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 07:10:23 PM PDT
(Sgt, USArmy, RVN, '68) and have never voted rethug in my life. And barring a major realignment of the planets never will. In fact I am always a bit suspicious about people who have voted rethug in the past 40 years, because the rethug agenda has been clear since at least 1966. Namely, destroy the middle class, increase benefits to the wealthy, destroy national security and restore the feudal rights of the oligarchs! And they have been amazingly successful at it, largely because so many of us colluded with/voted for them.
"The fact which the politician faces is merely that there is less honor among thieves than was supposed, and not the fact that they are thieves." Thoreau
by shigeru on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:48:11 PM PDT
I turned 18 in June of 2000. Voted for Bush.
I've since changed. The Republican Party claims to be for national security, it claims to be for civil liberties, and it claims to be for fiscal responsibility. These were all lies. In becoming a Democrat, I have also come to realize the importance and value of taxes, and that they are necessary, and the important thing is to ensure that they are spent well.
Somebody who wastes money and doesn't raise taxes is worse to me then somebody who spends money wisely and raises taxes to use it wisely. And that is when I finished the trip to liberal :)
Additionally, the Republican Party claims to be the pro-military party. They're pro-military in the sense that a kid is pro-toy. They like having the military to play with and to use as a tool to act out their own fantasies. Some in the military realize this. I did.
OEF/OIF vet I've been called a left-wing extremist because I absolutely oppose torture. I can live with that.
by jabbausaf on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:07:56 AM PDT
And as another Republican once said:
"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society" Oliver Wendell Holmes
"Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society"
Oliver Wendell Holmes
"If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy." -teacherken
by offgrid on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:09:02 PM PDT
They're pro-military in the sense that a kid is pro-toy. They like having the military to play with and to use as a tool to act out their own fantasies.
I will be cribbing this for future "discussions." Thanks much.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. -- Thos. Jefferson
by HooverWhoWontSuck on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:41:04 PM PDT
Democrats support the troops. Republicans support the war.
by Free Spirit on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:25:53 PM PDT
We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace -6.63, -6.97
by amRadioHed on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:00:21 PM PDT
even when the Republicans were universally perceived to be in favor of the military. That just means they favor defense contractors, not troops. Bush and Cheney are chickenhawks, if I have the term right. Max Cleland, Jim Webb, and John Murtha are in favor of the troops.
by i prefer soccer on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:02:23 PM PDT
"Our troops are being asked to fight for their government-- NOT for their nation!"
Aloha .. .. ..
by dolphin777 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 04:42:36 PM PDT
They have successfully infiltrated the Democratic Party and taken it completely over. If not through open primaries, then by switching parties. How do you think we got so corporate?
by dkmich on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:44:18 PM PDT
I don't think Republicans infiltrated the Democratic Party and took it over. I think the corporations and their lobbyists infiltrated the wallets of Democrats and turned them into DINOs.
by Free Spirit on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:28:41 PM PDT
and your party got invaded and captured by loonies, wouldn't you leave? Just because they leave doesn't mean that they don't bring their corporate/Republican poltics with them.
by dkmich on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:38:48 PM PDT
your party got invaded and captured by loonies, wouldn't you leave?
Have you left the Democratic Party because it's been invaded and captured by corporatists?
Just because they leave doesn't mean that they don't bring their corporate/Republican poltics with them.
Just because they leave the Republican Party doesn't mean they have to join the Democratic Party. The steady growth in the number of unaffiliated voters over the past decades represents mostly disgruntled ex-party affiliated voters who are fed up with their own party but don't like the other one, either.
I am more inclined to think that those who chose to join the Democratic Party did so because, like jabbausaf, their experience with the Republican Party led them to better appreciate and more fully embrace the tenets of the Democratic Party.
To be clear, I'm talking about rank-and-file voters. If you are talking about a seeker of political office, then yes, because they usually do have to join the other party if they want to continue to serve in an elected office. But party-switching is such a rarity among this crowd as to be unlikely to have much influence on the overall character of either party.
by Free Spirit on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:11:02 PM PDT
Unfortunately my body and voting hand has no place else to go. Even a reformed Republican is more right than the rightest of the left.
by dkmich on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:50:01 PM PDT
by dolphin777 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 03:44:48 PM PDT
progressive on many issues, but he's definitely a Democrat.
Believe me, I'm not happy about this vote at all, but not voting for it certainly doesn't drum one out of the party.
He's not a purist on every one of the issues I would like him to be, but then again, who is?
I really take exception with your characterization of Senator Webb as
...not a real Democrat...a good person but not really supporting the people's agenda.
Obama 2008
by cato on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:31:59 AM PDT
This isn't his first time, you know.
by dkmich on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:45:22 PM PDT
read through the most egregious votes we've suffered through in this "new and improved" '06 Congress - Webb's name is on the wrong side nearly every time. the silliness over embracing this guy as some kind of 'gate-crasher' or 'people powered candidate' is just that, silliness. Webb went from being a Republican to being a center-right corporate Dem immediately overnight. smooth transition, it seems.
matters like this are part of why civilian control over the government is so important - people too familiar with the military become accustomed to routine invasions of privacy and are willing to accept this writ large in the country because they have to live with it themselves.
by itsbenj on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:59:37 PM PDT
Telecom corridor in VA with every major Telco/ISP having a huge data or operations center.
Could it be pressure from ordinary and extra-ordinary constituents?
Help! I can't tell the Republican trolls apart from the Democratic trolls, anymore!
by Bronxist on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:03:13 AM PDT
"super constituents?"
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:25:16 AM PDT
by shigeru on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:51:52 AM PDT
the warrantless wire tapping of Americans has yielded some embarrassing (criminal?) info about all of them that Cheney has in his arsenal? How much money would the telecoms have to offer someone in the Rockerfeller family to have him support lawlessness and the destruction of the constitution?
by Aint Supposed to Die a Natural Death on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:59:45 AM PDT
to a whole new level, doesn't it?
The History Commons needs your participation.
by Black Max on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:09:55 PM PDT
But then Dodd would not be out there opposing immunity. The margins would be 99 - 1 with Feingold as the sole holdout -- no skeletons in his closet ;)
by Bronxist on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:15:34 PM PDT
Because the fact is Real Democrats don't agree on everything, or ostracize people they have a lot in common with over any one or two position differences. It's what sets us apart and the one facet of this party I'm most proud of. It makes it trickier for us to govern, but it means more thought necessarily goes into the decisions we make.
by TooFolkGR on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:22:01 PM PDT
and if we are willing to own him as a Senator, we should not disqualify him for leadership positions.
I think Jim Webb is 100% the best possible Veep candidate for Obama. I think it is wrong for you to be willing to accept the "D" by his name for Senate purposes, but then to send him to the back of the bus as some kind of 3/5 of a Democratic party member when it comes to leadership positions.
by Anaxamander on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:36:03 PM PDT
right on
by worried dem on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:09:16 PM PDT
Even though Webb disappointed today, I don't want to lose that Senate seat to a Republican. Why risk a Senate seat? Why can't Obama find a running mate who is currently occupying a safe seat? I really don't get the rationale on this, especially since it's imperative we capture and hold on to as many Senate seats as possible if we want anything progressive passing.
Edwards Democrats and Progressives Unite! Visit us at EENR Blog
by sarahlane on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 02:26:13 PM PDT
by Anaxamander on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 05:42:07 PM PDT
Kaine appoints whoever...which never goes over well with voters...special election...then what? I want to hold on to that seat. Period.
by sarahlane on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:23:35 PM PDT
So he could appoint a placeholder person who won't run... that always goes over well, and then run himself. He's very popular there.
by Anaxamander on Wed Feb 13, 2008 at 06:46:21 AM PDT
He's a fine senator for VA, but not an especially great Dem overall. We don't need to disqualify him for anything, but neither do we need to put him undeservedly on a pedestal. People around here are ballistic in going after Hillary, and yet Webb is far to her right on just about every issue.
If he were running in the Presidential campaign people would be hating him...and yet he's a good VP pick? I don't think so.
Don't like XOM and OPEC? What have YOU done to reduce your oil consumption? Hot air does NOT constitute a renewable resource!
by Asak on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 04:09:35 PM PDT
Sometime between 1961 and 1980 a lot of republicans got left without a party. It took another 20 years for most of them to figure that out. Webb and Wes Clark are prime examples of that. Actually, in many ways Hillary is one of them as well. One could make the argument (not that I am, at least here) that Obama fits that mold as well.
My concern is that now that they've all joined MY party they're taking it farther and farther right. I want to be a part of the party of FDR and the New Deal, although at this point, TR's Square Deal sounds pretty damn liberal.
I am an Edwards Democrat.
by ThirstyGator on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 01:11:12 PM PDT
by concerned on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 08:47:29 PM PDT
target about Webb being moderate republican, and yes there are quite a few of these. Forty years ago these were actually your main stream republicans. People like the Clinton's, Bayh, Nelson, Pryor these would have been classified as moderate republicans forty years ago. Today there are very few real democrats.
by Smada AD on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 06:44:48 PM PDT
maybe he had a family party planned
by JackDawkins on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:13:44 PM PDT
by Digdin on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:21:33 AM PDT
by acuppajo on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:34:18 AM PDT
Obama for voting present or for not showing up to vote?
by jabbausaf on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:03:39 AM PDT
Not totally inconsistent.
John Kerry: "The rubber stamp Republicans have now become the Roadblock Republicans"
by beachmom on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 09:08:02 AM PDT
Things are going to get a lot worse before they get worse. ~ Lily Tomlin
by vigilant meerkat on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:11:40 AM PDT
Which is why I worry about what either Clinton or Obama will be able to accomplish, unless there's a helluva change in Congress come November.
by Heart of the Rockies on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 11:27:06 AM PDT
by world dancer on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:29:36 PM PDT
And inexplicable, IMO.
Anyway, the first thing I thought after seeing Webb's name in that list was "No VP". Period.
by numbertwopencil on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:14:12 PM PDT
Considering Sprint/Nextel and AOL are headquartered in Virginia, along with big representation from Verizon.
He won in 2006 by 0.3% of the vote...
Based on this, I disagree with his assertion that he "voted based on his beliefs". He voted to keep his political life in VA.
by nyc175 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:19:40 AM PDT
for the vote if it came to save his own ass than if it's what he actually believes.
I don't know if what you say is true, but those kind of politically motivated votes on these kinds of extremely important issues are the worst kind of decisions.
Get bonded.
by vancookie on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:32:40 AM PDT
However, I think it is a possibility (whether he would say it or not), and I don't support his vote in any way.
by nyc175 on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:38:24 AM PDT
But very likely his son's (still in Iraq, serving with the Marines) - not to mention the other points made here about telcos being a great deal of his voter base.
Anyone who fails to see the historical parallels between Blackwater & the Nazi SS, or the DHS & the Gestapo, needs a serious reality check.
by Randgrithr on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:42:19 AM PDT
The original DoD data vacuum point.
by Randgrithr on Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 10:41:04 AM PDT
He said "Senator Webb will give the Administration any and all of the tools that they need to fight terrorism."
I said, "I'm not one of those Republican loonies that confuses security and civil liberties."
He said, "The Senator is only doing wha