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  •  the chance for it all to be turned around (4+ / 0-)

    "yes we can"

    please pardon the poor keyboarding, i can never decide which two of my ten thumbs to use, so hopefully some of you are fluent in Typo

    by TAPayne on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 01:55:06 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I doubt we will return (4+ / 0-)

      to old, quaint, ideas such as All men [people] are created equal regardless of citizenship or not and endowed by inalienable rights, regardless of citizenship, or reverting back to clear separation of powers.

      We may get Habeas Corpus back, though.

      It looks just like a Telefunken U47 - with leather...

      by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:02:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Those... (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Jeffersonian Democrat

        "quaint" ideas, as you put it, were gradually swept out with the dawn of the Industrial Revolution.

        "The erudite are not wise and the wise are not erudite." - Lao Tzu

        by TheKost on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:09:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  well with this good start we have a shot at (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Jeffersonian Democrat

        , why cant patient gradualism work for the restoration of these things as it has worked to unravel them in the past

        please pardon the poor keyboarding, i can never decide which two of my ten thumbs to use, so hopefully some of you are fluent in Typo

        by TAPayne on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:10:05 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  only because (0+ / 0-)

          I am a pessimist ;-)

          It looks just like a Telefunken U47 - with leather...

          by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:12:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  why not? (4+ / 0-)

          We're heading towards a set of tipping points, any of which can turn America into something best viewed at a safe distance.

          What are we going to do about:

          • peak oil
          • global warming
          • financial meltdown in progress
          • the increasing centralization of power into the executive and its police state implications
          • the effect on the non-Richistani of neoliberalsm / globalism
          • $2T of civil infrastructure that's gradually turning to shit because politicians see no personal benefit in adequate maintenance or replacement?
          • an adequate national health system which is not a back door subsidy gateway to health insurers

          Get all of this more or less right in the next few years and we'll have a chance to rebuild America into a prosperous and democratic nation.

          Get it right a decade from now and America's last remaining important resourcem, the Federal government's ability to borrow will be pissed away in tax cuts for the wealthy, health insurance company subsidies traded for junk insurance for all, and on military misadventures like Iraq.

          Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.

          by alizard on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 03:04:33 AM PDT

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      •  Those are some rose (4+ / 0-)

        tinted glasses you're looking though to the past. America has never lived up to those ideals. Ever.

        The promise of America is that we keep on trying, working through the injustices and inequalities as we go. We've had some setbacks, but the core of this country is that we believe that it's not enough just to take things as they are, but to strive for that 'More Perfect Union' that we've all heard about.

        Like a great man said, and another has repeated.

        The arc of history bends towards justice.

        •  Rose-tinted glasses (4+ / 0-)

          is a little demeaning.  Merely lots of study of Rousseau, Herder, Voltaire, Locke Jefferson and the like.  Those ideals were materially written in historical documents.

          But also with the territory come the Robespierres and Andrew Jacksons.  There is no denying the big warts, such as the attempt to write slavery out in the Constitution but political expediency required the support of the southern colonies, or the massacres of indigenous populations.

          But there is also no denying that for a time, the US was the best hope and a beacon in a time of degenerating aristocracies, social class stagnation, and bourgeois empires.  Until, of course, the US succumbed to the same forces.

          Never before in human history had so many thinkers and political leaders come together to actually try to change the human condition, and they did succeed to a certain extent, but they couldn't do it all themselves... hence the Great Experiment.

          It looks just like a Telefunken U47 - with leather...

          by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 02:35:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No offense intended (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Jeffersonian Democrat

            All I meant was that when you stated that we wouldn't return to those ideas you implied that we had ever lived up to them in the first place.  

            Church and state has been a battle since the beginning, and we've never really gotten the hang of all that 'all men(people) are created equal' stuff.

            In many ways, this country has made more social progress that we could have ever imagined. In others, we're falling short. But we're moving in the right direction.

            •  yea, I guess my point was (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              brentmack

              that I fear that we may have given up even trying to live up to them, even if the track record wasn't the greatest, we were at least trying.

              Now, if you are not a citizen and even if you are it is sketchy, coming through a US airport you have no rights or liberties.  Perhaps not obvious on the domestic front (Obama being quite a stunning example) but in other ways I think we are actually headed backwards.  As somebody else said on this thread, we'll see if we can put that genie back into the bottle.

              It looks just like a Telefunken U47 - with leather...

              by Jeffersonian Democrat on Fri Feb 15, 2008 at 03:48:08 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But that, too (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Jeffersonian Democrat

                has been going on forever. There has always been a backlash against immigrants and foreigners, often much worse than now. I agree it's disheartening to see that we haven't come as far as I had thought, but sanity has always reasserted itself.
                Civil rights arrests, Kent State, The red scare, WW2 internment camps, WW1 anti-German sentiment, forced 're-education' of American Indians, the backlash against Russian immigrants, Irish immigrants, Vietnamese immigrants, Chinese immigrants. Hell, just about every sizable immigrant group since the inception of this country has been greeted with violent opposition and institutionalized bigotry.

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