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Obama/Gore '08
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:42:25 AM PDT
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpoi...
front page
Grandpa is mean and he smells funny.
by MadAsHellMaddie on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:46:38 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:03:56 PM PDT
and pretending to lose your "religion" over.
by MadAsHellMaddie on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:08:34 PM PDT
Obama believes that trade with foreign nations should strengthen the American economy and create more American jobs. He will stand firm against agreements that undermine our economic security.
Fight for Fair Trade: Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. He will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports.
Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers.
Improve Transition Assistance: To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama would update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs.
Technology, Innovation and Creating Jobs Obama will encourage the deployment of the most modern communications infrastructure to reduce the costs of health care, help solve our energy crisis, create new jobs, and fuel our economic growth.
Support Job Creation: Barack Obama believes we need to double federal funding for basic research and make the research and development tax credit permanent to help create high-paying, secure jobs. Obama will also make long-term investments in education, training, and workforce development so that Americans can leverage our strengths - our ingenuity and entrepreneurialism - to create new high-wage jobs and prosper in a world economy.
Invest in U.S. Manufacturing: The Obama comprehensive energy independence and climate change plan will invest in America's highly-skilled manufacturing workforce and manufacturing centers to ensure that American workers have the skills and tools they need to pioneer the first wave of green technologies that will be in high demand throughout the world. Obama will also provide assistance to the domestic auto industry to ensure that new fuel-efficient vehicles are built by American workers.
Create New Job Training Programs for Clean Technologies: The Obama plan will increase funding for federal workforce training programs and direct these programs to incorporate green technologies training, such as advanced manufacturing and weatherization training, into their efforts to help Americans find and retain stable, high-paying jobs. Obama will also create an energy-focused youth jobs program to invest in disconnected and disadvantaged youth.
Boost the Renewable Energy Sector and Create New Jobs: The Obama plan will create new federal policies, and expand existing ones, that have been proven to create new American jobs. Obama will create a federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) that will require 25 percent of American electricity be derived from renewable sources by 2025, which has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs on its own. Obama will also extend the Production Tax Credit, a credit used successfully by American farmers and investors to increase renewable energy production and create new local jobs.
Deploy Next-Generation Broadband: Obama believes we can get broadband to every community in America through a combination of reform of the Universal Service Fund, better use of the nation's wireless spectrum, promotion of next-generation facilities, technologies and applications, and new tax and loan incentives.
Protect the Openness of the Internet: Obama supports the basic principle that network providers should not be allowed to charge fees to privilege the content or applications of some web sites and Internet applications over others. This principle will ensure that the new competitors, especially small or nonprofit speakers, have the same opportunity as big companies to innovate and reach large audiences.
Invest in Rural Areas: Obama will invest in rural small businesses and fight to expand high-speed Internet access. He will improve rural schools and attract more doctors to rural areas.
Labor Obama will strengthen the ability of workers to organize unions. He will fight for passage of the Employee Free Choice Act. Obama will ensure that his labor appointees support workers' rights and will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers. Obama will also increase the minimum wage and index it to inflation to ensure it rises every year.
Ensure Freedom to Unionize: Obama believes that workers should have the freedom to choose whether to join a union without harassment or intimidation from their employers. Obama cosponsored and is strong advocate for the Employee Free Choice Act, a bipartisan effort to assure that workers can exercise their right to organize. He will continue to fight for EFCA's passage and sign it into law.
Fight Attacks on Workers' Right to Organize: Obama has fought the Bush National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) efforts to strip workers of their right to organize. He is a cosponsor of legislation to overturn the NLRB's "Kentucky River" decisions classifying hundreds of thousands of nurses, construction, and professional workers as "supervisors" who are not protected by federal labor laws.
Protect Striking Workers: Obama supports the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. He will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.
Raise the Minimum Wage: Barack Obama will raise the minimum wage, index it to inflation and increase the Earned Income Tax Credit to make sure that full-time workers earn a living wage that allows them to raise their families and pay for basic needs.
by MadAsHellMaddie on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:10:35 PM PDT
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:11:33 PM PDT
just posted--it's Obama's economic policy, which clearly addresses the issues you claim he does not address.
I have also posted (a few places now!) Obama's remarks from the Ohio debate, which completely contradict what you are claiming in this diary. Obama said point-blank that trade was not the only important economic issue, and went on to discuss just about everything you are dissing him for purportedly not talking about.
by jenesq on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:16:54 PM PDT
... replies.
A) The premise of the question was the NAFTA criticism was hollow. So of course its not surprising that he said what he said.
B) I have read his website. Thoroughly. That isn't where issues get demagogued. It happens through mailers, radio spots, etc.... Forms of communication that don't see a lot of sunlight.
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:23:48 PM PDT
... even?
Now, I don't want anyone to think that the CTV story was what busted my confidence in him.
It just brought my mind back to the whole b.s demagoguery on NAFTA.
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:10:46 PM PDT
The stupid thing is that the MSM doesn't ask about infrastructure improvement, or college recruitment, or any of the other stuff you mentioned.
NAFTA is the easy topic because it's something everybody knows.
That being said, Obama has talked about infrastructure. I'm looking for his specific plan, but here's a quote from an NPR story:
Obama also called for investing $60 billion over the next 10 years to fix bridges, highways and other infrastructure. He said the plan would generate up to 2 million new jobs, directly and indirectly. He planned to pay for the additional investment with money that's now being used to fund the war in Iraq.
We...join arm in arm and decide we are going to remake this country block by block, precinct by precinct, county by county, state by state - that's what hope is.
by DemocraticOz on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:50:44 AM PDT
"Is this NAFTA's fault?"
And over and over, I answered, "Um... no?" because - no, I don't think NAFTA caused the issues you brought up.
If you think that it did, it would benefit if you could provide the support that supports that.
And then you said, "The simple fact is there is a lot more that ails Ohio than NAFTA." Cool. Tell us what those things are, and what anyone - Obama, Clinton, your governor, your mayor, me living in Chicago - what anyone could do to help - even a maybe.
I feel like you created this big confusing puzzle, but you forgot the key piece.
"2009" The end of an error
by sheddhead on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:52:26 AM PDT
Blaming it on Obama, when you haven't even stated the real problem yourself, is way sucky.
by sheddhead on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:57:54 AM PDT
Corporations who haven't figured out how to get ahead of the curve and are trying to sell us stuff that we don't need - Mega SUVs are a great example.
by Yoshimi on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:59:16 AM PDT
kept the auto industry afloat the last few years. So I don't know how neatly you can fold the corp responsibility notion into the economic narrative.
by burrow owl on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:21:25 PM PDT
The imports and foreign firms producing in the US seem to be a lot more on the ball in producing economy vehicles. A great deal of the problems are with American management practices and visions.
by DaleA on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:27:43 PM PDT
have been staggering. There is a problem of lack of foresight there, because SUVs are such gas-guzzlers, but one can't blame Detroit's ills the past 10 years on the current product.
by burrow owl on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:29:46 PM PDT
NAFTA that has caused Ohio's economic woes? In fact, he often talks about it being much more than that and if I remember correctly, did so in the debate this week.
It seems to me that you were looking for a reason to lose your religion, as you say, but I hope you'll reconsider and certainly not base it on the CBC reports which have been throughly debunked (whether you believe it or not).
the real me: thejoshuablog.com
by Junglered1 on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:52:47 AM PDT
I've posted this elsewhere on this thread, but it bears repeating. This is what Obama said at the debate in Ohio (I posted the link to the transcript in another comment):
I'm positive it hasn't been better for Ohio. But you are making a very legitimate point, which is, is that this trade (can/can't ?) be the only part of our economic agenda. But we've seen seven years in which we have a president who has been looking out for the well-heeled and people who are doing very well in the global economy, in the financial industries, in the telecommunications industries, and has not been looking out for ordinary workers. What do we have to do? We're going to have to invest in infrastructure to make sure that we're competitive. And I've got a plan to do that. We're going to have to invest in science and technology. We've got to vastly improve our education system. We have to look at energy and the potential for creating green jobs that can not just save on our energy costs but, more importantly, can create jobs in building windmills that will produce manufacturing jobs here in Ohio, can put rural communities back on their feet by working on alternative fuels, making buildings more energy efficient. We can hire young people who are out of work and put them to work in the trade. So there are all sorts of things that we're going to have to do to make the United States economy much more competitive, and those are plans that I have put forward in this campaign and I expect to pursue as president of the United States of America
I'm positive it hasn't been better for Ohio. But you are making a very legitimate point, which is, is that this trade (can/can't ?) be the only part of our economic agenda. But we've seen seven years in which we have a president who has been looking out for the well-heeled and people who are doing very well in the global economy, in the financial industries, in the telecommunications industries, and has not been looking out for ordinary workers.
What do we have to do? We're going to have to invest in infrastructure to make sure that we're competitive. And I've got a plan to do that. We're going to have to invest in science and technology. We've got to vastly improve our education system. We have to look at energy and the potential for creating green jobs that can not just save on our energy costs but, more importantly, can create jobs in building windmills that will produce manufacturing jobs here in Ohio, can put rural communities back on their feet by working on alternative fuels, making buildings more energy efficient.
We can hire young people who are out of work and put them to work in the trade. So there are all sorts of things that we're going to have to do to make the United States economy much more competitive, and those are plans that I have put forward in this campaign and I expect to pursue as president of the United States of America
by jenesq on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:11:36 PM PDT
We have every right to disagree with anyone, including and especially our politicians.
I do not agree with all of Obama's platforms. I also realize that some of his actions are predicated on trying to win an election. I am backing Obama.
I do not expect a perfect fit. I also do not expect a politician to not 'tailer' his oratory with the objective being winning the nomination and the presidency. He is a politician and a lawyer.
He has Clinton on the ropes with NAFTA. He is taking advantage of that. It does not change my vote.
"He who fears something gives it power over him."--Arab proverb
by crazyshirley2100 on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:53:45 AM PDT
From his website
(I encourage people to read and research what Obama's real positions are, before they post diatribes...)
Wages are Stagnant as Prices Rise: While wages remain flat, the costs of basic necessities are increasing. The cost of in-state college tuition has grown 35 percent over the past five years. Health care costs have risen four times faster than wages over the past six years. And the personal savings rate is now the lowest it's been since the Great Depression.
Tax Cuts for Wealthy Instead of Middle Class: The Bush tax cuts give those who earn over $1 million dollars a tax cut nearly 160 times greater than that received by middle-income Americans. At the same time, this administration has refused to tackle health care, education and housing in a manner that benefits the middle class.
Provide Middle Class Americans Tax Relief Obama will cut income taxes by $1,000 for working families to offset the payroll tax they pay.
Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees. Trade Obama believes that trade with foreign nations should strengthen the American economy and create more American jobs. He will stand firm against agreements that undermine our economic security.
Fight for Fair Trade: Obama will fight for a trade policy that opens up foreign markets to support good American jobs. He will use trade agreements to spread good labor and environmental standards around the world and stand firm against agreements like the Central American Free Trade Agreement that fail to live up to those important benchmarks. Obama will also pressure the World Trade Organization to enforce trade agreements and stop countries from continuing unfair government subsidies to foreign exporters and nontariff barriers on U.S. exports. Amend the North American Free Trade Agreement: Obama believes that NAFTA and its potential were oversold to the American people. Obama will work with the leaders of Canada and Mexico to fix NAFTA so that it works for American workers. Improve Transition Assistance: To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama would update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs. Technology, Innovation and Creating Jobs Obama will encourage the deployment of the most modern communications infrastructure to reduce the costs of health care, help solve our energy crisis, create new jobs, and fuel our economic growth.
Support Job Creation: Barack Obama believes we need to double federal funding for basic research and make the research and development tax credit permanent to help create high-paying, secure jobs. Obama will also make long-term investments in education, training, and workforce development so that Americans can leverage our strengths - our ingenuity and entrepreneurialism - to create new high-wage jobs and prosper in a world economy. Invest in U.S. Manufacturing: The Obama comprehensive energy independence and climate change plan will invest in America's highly-skilled manufacturing workforce and manufacturing centers to ensure that American workers have the skills and tools they need to pioneer the first wave of green technologies that will be in high demand throughout the world. Obama will also provide assistance to the domestic auto industry to ensure that new fuel-efficient vehicles are built by American workers. Create New Job Training Programs for Clean Technologies: The Obama plan will increase funding for federal workforce training programs and direct these programs to incorporate green technologies training, such as advanced manufacturing and weatherization training, into their efforts to help Americans find and retain stable, high-paying jobs. Obama will also create an energy-focused youth jobs program to invest in disconnected and disadvantaged youth. Boost the Renewable Energy Sector and Create New Jobs: The Obama plan will create new federal policies, and expand existing ones, that have been proven to create new American jobs. Obama will create a federal Renewable Portfolio Standard (RPS) that will require 25 percent of American electricity be derived from renewable sources by 2025, which has the potential to create hundreds of thousands of new jobs on its own. Obama will also extend the Production Tax Credit, a credit used successfully by American farmers and investors to increase renewable energy production and create new local jobs. Deploy Next-Generation Broadband: Obama believes we can get broadband to every community in America through a combination of reform of the Universal Service Fund, better use of the nation's wireless spectrum, promotion of next-generation facilities, technologies and applications, and new tax and loan incentives. Protect the Openness of the Internet: Obama supports the basic principle that network providers should not be allowed to charge fees to privilege the content or applications of some web sites and Internet applications over others. This principle will ensure that the new competitors, especially small or nonprofit speakers, have the same opportunity as big companies to innovate and reach large audiences. Invest in Rural Areas: Obama will invest in rural small businesses and fight to expand high-speed Internet access. He will improve rural schools and attract more doctors to rural areas. Labor Obama will strengthen the ability of workers to organize unions. He will fight for passage of the Employee Free Choice Act. Obama will ensure that his labor appointees support workers' rights and will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers. Obama will also increase the minimum wage and index it to inflation to ensure it rises every year.
Ensure Freedom to Unionize: Obama believes that workers should have the freedom to choose whether to join a union without harassment or intimidation from their employers. Obama cosponsored and is strong advocate for the Employee Free Choice Act, a bipartisan effort to assure that workers can exercise their right to organize. He will continue to fight for EFCA's passage and sign it into law. Fight Attacks on Workers' Right to Organize: Obama has fought the Bush National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) efforts to strip workers of their right to organize. He is a cosponsor of legislation to overturn the NLRB's "Kentucky River" decisions classifying hundreds of thousands of nurses, construction, and professional workers ...." (And there is much more)
by la urracca on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:59:47 AM PDT
A few quotes and a link is better for the reader.
by burrow owl on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:22:22 PM PDT
when people will NOT even clink on a link to actually READ what Obama's positions are...
Many comments ( and some diaries) on DKos reflect that the commenter has not in fact bothered to become informed.
Sorry if it annoyed you.
by la urracca on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:41:43 PM PDT
What about my comment made you think I have not read Obama's platforms? I gave no opinion on any one part of what Obama writes in his platform. I simply said that, while voting for him, his platform was not a perfect fit for me.
I surprised if everything he does/says is golden to you. Not even my husband gets that from me ;-).
by crazyshirley2100 on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 01:51:58 PM PDT
It was to someone up thread from you...I placed it poorly. I have been away from this, and there are now so many interim posts, that it no longer makes sense ( if it ever did).
And I agree with you....
by la urracca on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 02:40:32 PM PDT
many won't even read your diary before tearing into you.
Because I won't trade humanity for patriotism!
by Drewid on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:55:20 AM PDT
by jay w on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:55:57 AM PDT
the previous comment well over 50% of the results indicated that the diarist should "STFU and save my criticism for after the general election".
by jay w on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:59:52 AM PDT
I thought you meant the poll itself. Silly me.
by Drewid on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:11:20 PM PDT
about Ohio's ONLY problem being NAFTA.
What he has said, is that until we get IRAQ solved, which is draining our empty treasury, we cannot solve anything else, because solutions cost money.
I think he's also been pretty straightforward about improvements in infrastructure (which could employ folk who have been displaced by the housing situation).
He actually does hold some very sensible, non-single issue positions, including investment in 'green industries' which could also put people back to work.
Trust him to be president, trust him to run his campaign.
by pvlb on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:14:12 PM PDT
that he thinks trade is some serious problem, when he believes it's a good thing. It's a problem of pandering, in other words (the difference in his site on trade before and after OH became the focus was night and day.)
by burrow owl on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:23:54 PM PDT
I disagree with the outright request for recs and would suggest you remove it, but I rec'd it anyway.
You have a legitimate gripe and I'd like to see reasoned discussion of it. Frankly I find it unbelievable that (as of the time I write this) I'm the only person to have voted AGAINST you shutting up.
I'm an Obama supporter too, and I'm not disillusioned with him; the speeches and positions I've heard from him are consistent, that trade deals are good but they need to be tempered with reasonable constraints. He's come out against NAFTA as it's currently formulated, not against trade per se.
The nice thing about Obama, from my point of view, is that his positions are well thought out and nuanced, rather than black and white.
And yes, it does seem like he emphasizes different aspects depending on his audience - which, admittedly, is not quite living up to his high ideal of telling people truths they don't want to hear. That's one reason I'd like to see more discussion of this diary - I personally don't have enough knowledge of the subject matter to judge whether his emphasis is really changing all that much, to the point where he's actually being disingenuous about it or not.
I find it hard to believe that on this site people are voting for you to STFU. "Less free speech!" Really?
John McCain, 2008: "Can someone look up my position on John McCain 2000?"
by sab39 on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:57:05 AM PDT
he knows that it reallocates resources, a natural part of which is some sectors getting hit and people losing jobs. Like any other politician, he's promising the universe when he knows he can't deliver.
by burrow owl on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:25:42 PM PDT
I agree generally with sab39 and believe whole-heartedly that you should air your concerns and questions now (or whenever you want). NAFTA, and free trade generally, isn't a black and white issues and we need to think through all the nuances, to use sab39's framing of Obama's positions.
My beef with your diary is that it is dismissive of Obama in a way that I don't think is fair (or even necessary for you to make your point). His appeal for me is his approach to governance -- and the stark contrast of that approach to Clinton's. It is striving to build (or seize upon) a consensus and reach across apparent ideological boundaries when possible. This is more about listening than about speaking.
Again, play on -- keep up the discussion -- but don't resort to unnecessary over-generalizations about the candidate.
by Shep001 on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:49:50 PM PDT
Currently you are stuck with Obama or Clinton and both are probably more for free trade than will make you comfortable.
I don't know what to say except that the Blade overwhelmingly endorsed Obama today.
by Yoshimi on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:57:11 AM PDT
.... a little more. OF COURSE HE'S THE BETTER CANDIDATE. I'm a little disappointed.
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 11:58:27 AM PDT
Obama started his political career working for people in East Chicago who lost jobs to new plants overseas. He also grew up in a poor country and understands that economic isolationism is not the answer and free trade has helped develop the third world.
We can push him (and Clinton) to make sure that trade should enforce labor and environmental requirements.
by Yoshimi on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:03:55 PM PDT
.... about what the REAL PROBLEM is. Jump start that discussion. Hopefully, people will ask th right questions of their state-wide leaders in the next election. Maybe, just maybe, they'll ask candidates to pledge to invest in infrastructure! Maybe people will ask for the right things in 2010. I'm just sad at the missed opportunity. This was a great opportunity to make the case for infrastructure investment. Instead the debate centered on NAFTA.
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:07:57 PM PDT
the state has been rock solid GOP for a long time. Those people do not believe in infrastructure. It is all about finding ways not to pay any taxes.
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire
by hairspray on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:51:37 PM PDT
It's not going anywhere.
I'm not sure it's an effective campaign tactic to blow into town and announce: "Your road's suck, your schools suck, your state government is corrupt (and also sucks)" And what can he do about any of those things, anyway? That's up to the local and state residents. All he can do is indicate what directions he would take at a national level that might provide a better foundation for the local and state residents to work from. It seems to me he does do that in several ways.
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle
by Catte Nappe on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:56:19 PM PDT
considerable amount of time in upper middle class neighborhoods. Punahuo High School on Oahu (I lived there, but not in the pricey neighborhood he did) is the creme de la creme of Oahu. Just sayin'
by hairspray on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:49:54 PM PDT
crazymoloch is saying that he himself is very pro-"free"-trade. he thought obama felt the same, and was just demagoguing it, but is disappointed that either obama may truly be a fair trader ("protectionist" in neoliberal-speak), or that obama doesn't come out and preach the free-trade foursquare gospel.
IIUC.
l'audace! l'audace! toujours l'audace!
by zeke L on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:03:05 PM PDT
You read a few NAFTA diaries on Obama and you make certain assumptions as you skim through it. My bad.
by Yoshimi on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:06:20 PM PDT
so we work with certain assumptions because they're good shortcuts.
by burrow owl on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:27:13 PM PDT
I posted this in another comment, with the link to the transcript. This is what Obama said during the Ohio debate:
by jenesq on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:05:37 PM PDT
... in debate. It happens through mailers and radio spots.
Also, how much air time was devoted to NAFTA during the debate?
by crazymoloch on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:14:30 PM PDT
very like a concern troll.
by la urracca on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 01:00:55 PM PDT
From wikipedia:
The early 20th century American social critic and humorist H. L. Mencken, known for his "definitions" of terms, defined a demagogue as "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots."
Demagogues may make use of logical fallacies, though persuasion may require no use of logic. While it may not rely heavily upon outright lies, the use of half-truths, omissions, and distortions are what define demagogy — it is, in essence, giving bad-faith arguments for political gain
by la urracca on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 01:07:53 PM PDT
Even though I disagree strongly with the diarist's support for "free trade" I agree with his assessment that the anti-NAFTA rhetoric of both candidates is insincere pandering AND that it is simplistic to blame NAFTA for the deindustrialization of Ohio (or much of the rest of the country).
The process of deindustrialization began in the 1970s and was well advanced before NAFTA was signed into law or implemented. Rather than being an effect of NAFTA, I would argue that both deindustrialization and NAFTA are effects of a process of financialization that began in the 1960s and that has characterized teh development of every hegemonic capitalist power since the Genoese financed the expansion of the Spanish Empire into the Americas in the 16th century.
In his book The Long Twentieth Century, Giovanni Arrighi argues that he history of global capitalism can be broken up into four "hegemonies" (Genoese, Dutch, English, and American) that correspond with successive "Systemic Cycles of Accumulation." These cycles in turn have ascending and descending phases. In the ascending phas the hegemonic power establishs first domination over commerce and then over production. Eventually, however, it becomes more profitable to invest in production outside of the hegemon's core territory, leading to a hollowing out of its domination of production and ultimately a crisis in its hegemonic status and openings for new ascendent hegemons.
There are certainly policies that can accelerate or slow down this process, but there is a political logic that favors the triumph of the former as the hollowing out of productive capacity produces increased political and economic inequality in the core territory.
The various phenomena that this diary blames for Ohio's deindustrialization are really, all themselves symptoms of this deeper structural logic. The idea that by somehow increasing college enrollment or encouraging greater patent production that Ohio would escape its position as an also-ran in the international division of labor is just as disingenuous as blaming everything on NAFTA.
What both the anti-NAFTA folks and the free-traders have in common is a refusal to face the inexorable decline in US hegemony as a feature of the life-cycle of capitalism. There isn't a policy solution that is going to put the Chinese genie back in its bottle. They are building hiways and universities at an astounding pace using labor that remains very cheap and neither new forms of protectionism nor chatter about "American entrepreneurial spirit" can reverse this.
Sick of candidate diaries? Kasama!"Tell no lies. Claim no easy victories" -- Amilcar Cabral
by Christopher Day on Thu Feb 28, 2008 at 12:13:46 PM PDT
wide narrow
View Story | 164 comments