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  •  He also (2+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    WattHead, moviemeister76

    flies on private jets. I don't trust any messiah and I don't think we should have a standard-bearer for environmentalism. The issue is too important and figureheads can be too easily smashed.

    You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

    by Libertaria on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 12:26:18 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  he purchases carbon offsets for his travel (9+ / 0-)

      all the crap the diarist mentions has been brought up before. Gore's house has the second-highest rating from the US Green Building Council.

      I don't see why the diarist has to make his personal declaration of independence from Gore by attacking him. Gore's not your leader? Great, fine, I don't really care or see how it makes one iota of difference, as long as you're interested in fighting climate change.

      But the diarist is only repeating tired right-wing talking points that do nothing but attack a man who is one of the world's most respected environmental advocates.

      •  Just wish I was (0+ / 0-)

        rich enough to live a lavish lifestyle and be able to buy carbon offsets. I live a green lifestyle the old-fashioned way-- by being poor.

        As far as using rightwing talking points, I find it tiresome when people use the term 'rightwing talking points.' Facts are facts and are nonpartisan. Find a new line of intimidation.

        And I'm probably to the left of most people around here.

        And of the hundreds of millions of houses in the US, Gore's is the second-highest rated!? Oookay. Call me crazy, but I'm betting my little hovel uses less energy than his.

        You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

        by Libertaria on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 02:50:06 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  so now it's not OK for him to be rich? (6+ / 0-)

          Would it be better if he were rich and didn't bother to use his wealth to be as environmentally sound as he possibly can? Or are you arguing that he doesn't deserve to have more money than you?

          Your post drips with resentment of the rich. When you say you're to the left of most people here, do you mean you want a complete and total redistribution of wealth, so that no one is rich or poor?

          And of the hundreds of millions of houses in the US, Gore's is the second-highest rated!? Oookay. Call me crazy, but I'm betting my little hovel uses less energy than his.

          Did you understand the article I linked to? The US Green Building Council doesn't rank every home in the US in numerical order, how the hell could they have the time or the manpower to do that? It has four levels of environmental soundness, like A through D on a report card, and anyone who wants them to rate a building can ask them to do so.

          The Green Building Council's certification program has four levels, with platinum being the highest followed by gold. Gore's home was one of 14 to earn gold status and the only Tennessee home to earn any certification.

          We all have to do what we can. Gore doesn't pretend that everyone is financially able to make the kinds of expensive technological improvements he has to cut his environmental impact. But he does point out that there are things everyone can do about this.

          Do you bike, walk, or take the bus rather than drive? Use cloth bags at the grocery instead of plastic? Use compact fluorescents? Those too are stopgaps, until we restructure our entire political and economic system to build environmental sustainability into them; but they are stopgaps that anyone can use.

          You seem to be more interested in slagging Gore and being angry that he has more money than you than anything else. Being poor is not an excuse for not trying to be environmentally sound. And attacking a man who spent thirty years bringing the environment to the world's attention does nothing to help matters.

          •  Yes, I would like to see (0+ / 0-)

            more redistribution of wealth. Wouldn't you? I won't be lectured to by any sanctimonius fat cat. And I do do all those environmentally things you suggested.

            You've got to vote for someone. It's a shame, but it's got to be done.--Whoopi Goldberg

            by Libertaria on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 03:43:21 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you didn't answer my question (6+ / 0-)

              to put it bluntly: when you say you're way to the left, are you a Marxist? Do you want to do away with all distinctions of wealth?

              I support redistribution of wealth via taxation, and I wouldn't mind bringing back the 90% income tax on personal income for the top tax bracket that was standard during Eisenhower's day.

              But you seem to be saying that you don't want anyone to be rich at all.

              I'm not well off. I don't even own a car. But I don't go around ranting about those who are very rich, unless they're doing something to harm me.

              Being rich is not a sin, no more than being smart or beautiful is a sin. What's wrong is having wealth, intelligence, or beauty and misusing it for selfish ends.

              Nor is being poor somehow a badge of nobility in and of itself. It's just being poor.

              So I'm sort of at a loss to understand your hostility here. I'm just curious where you're coming from, is all.

        •  Material that CEI will be disseminating (9+ / 0-)

          is not "facts", but twisted distortions of them.

          "20 times the average American" use of electricity ... sort of, if one ignores things like Gore's home is in the area of highest electricity use in the country ... or that his "home" is also an office with many people working there ... or that ... etc ...

          CEI is not interested in truth but in confusing you/us with truthiness.  

          Remember CEI: Tobacco does not cause cancer.  It will be too expensive and destroy the economy to do anything about Ozone.  Etc ...

        •  Looks like your envy is turning you green n/t (4+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          taylormattd, bronte17, vcmvo2, limpidglass

          WWYTR? Voting, contributing, supporting, and electing Democrats

          by PaintyKat on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:24:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Why can't we have both? (7+ / 0-)

        It's a false choice.  I'm not going to ditch Al Gore Jr. Nobel Laureate.  I'm also not going to ignore anyone just because I admire and listen to Gore.  I can actually do both at the same time - and I don't consider this some kind of rare super power either.

        This kind of old guard, that's-so-yesterday thinking isn't very useful.  We need everybody on board, rich and poor, young and old, famous and obscure.  Dissing anyone because of "X" is just a great way to drive away anyone who is "X".

        Proud member of the Cult of Issues and Substance!

        by Fabian on Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 03:07:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm not ignoring the diarist (5+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          taylormattd, vcmvo2, Fabian, pattyp, offgrid

          the vibe I'm getting is that he/she thinks of Gore as some kind of pessimistic old fogey who's way behind the times and wants, as the young tend to want, to cut themselves completely loose from everyone who's gone before.

          Gore's spent thirty years studying and thinking about the climate crisis, and probably knows more about it than any other politician alive. His understanding of what we need to do to fight it is profound, and it is foolish to deride and dismiss his hard-won wisdom.

          I see way too much blithe optimism in the diarist's dismissal of Gore's inconvenient truths as bleak pessimism. Gore's actually more optimistic than I am. He seems to think that a popular movement alone can make serious progress on climate change. I don't believe that real reform on climate change can come until we enter a crisis on the scale of the Great Depression, and while we should try our best to build a popular environmental movement, it won't reach critical mass until after the crisis hits.

          Also, restoring the environment is a long-term project, requiring the work of not just one, but many generations. It will not be completed in our lifetimes, perhaps not even in our grandchildren's. And it will require considerable sacrifice from us spoiled Americans who comprise 5% of the world's population, but consume a quarter of the its resources.

          Gore himself has said that one reason he's fighting for the environment is so his grandchildren can have a decent future. Gore's youngest son is of the diarist's generation.

          Gore's motives are the same as the diarist's: preserve the environment for the sake of the young. Why does the diarist, then, feel he has to insist on distinguishing his motives from Gore's? It never crossed my mind that the diarist might be so shallow as to care about climate change only for Gore's sake.

          There's no reason for the diarist to reject Gore just because he's older, nor is Gore trying to steal the thunder of the younger generation.

          Dismissing Gore as old and worn-out would be just as foolish as dismissing the young as ignorant and apathetic. Everyone has a part to play in this struggle, and everyone will be needed.

        •  Exactly! (3+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          taylormattd, PaintyKat, Fabian

          Why throw anyone overboard? I'll keep Gore, and let others prove themselves too. But honestly is it necessary to kick Al Gore to the curb?

      •  Is Watthead attacking Gore? (4+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, PaintyKat, Fabian, WattHead

        I don't see that.  "Alledgedly ..." or "done a great service ..."

        It would have been nice for Watthead to write something like "to be clear, the CEI is peddling truthiness rather than truth, blackness rather than light ..." before the declaration of independence. But I don't see the "attack".

      •  I didn't attack Gore (2+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        taylormattd, A Siegel

        I just didn't defend him.  It's not about the messenger, it's about the message, and that should have nothing to do with Gore.  

        Look, CEI's attacks on Gore are largely baseless, entirely designed to confuse and distract from his cause, and peddled by the same flat-earth denialists that claimed smoking had nothing to do with cancer.  If CEI had it's way, our children would be dying from second hand smoke, since they claimed it has NOTHING to do with cancer.  

        But the point is, THAT's not the point.  It's not about CEI, or about Al Gore, it's about the need to rise to the climate challenge and seize the opportunity to build a better future, a sustainable, just, and prosperous future, before the opportunity passes us by forever.  Why does Al Gore's private flights or large (green designed) house have anything to do with the veracity or import of that effort?

      •  Thank You! (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        PaintyKat

        So the idea is we should dump Gore and leave him to his fate at the hands of the haters and flat-earthers. Good Lord this makes me sick.

        I'm having none of it. Why anybody would work as hard as he has for the ingrates in this country, never mind this party - is beyond me.

        I am now very glad he didn't run for President!

        What a snotty diary! You don't have to worship him but respect him, now that would be nice!

        •  Sure I respect Gore (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          A Siegel

          That's why I wrote this in the diary:

          "Don't get me wrong, Al Gore has done a great service, tirelessly raising the profile of climate science and highlighting the warnings of the nightmare future we stand to inherit if we fail to act to end the climate crisis."

          The point is that several of the commenters here just spent plenty of time and digital ink engaging in a false debate with the likes of Libertaria.  I'd certainly love to see Gore's reputation intact.  He deserves both respect and recognition.

          But this movement and this cause aren't about Gore, and they aren't led by Gore.  The point of the diary is that we shouldn't, as a movement, be vulnerable to the kind of baseless smear campaigns CEI and friends are fond of running.  We shouldn't place all our eggs or pin all our hopes on a monolithic figurehead, not when our movement is so much greater than that, when it is led, as a write, by hundreds and hundreds of every day people fighting to make a difference.

          •  And Al Gore himself goes to great lengths (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            PaintyKat

            to praise and award and bring recognition to those people.

            He does NOT waste his time or his bytes by attacking good people.

            You don't tear others down to build yourself up.

            Our... constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. Thurgood Marshall

            by bronte17 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 08:20:52 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  How am I tearing down Gore? (0+ / 0-)

              Again, I didn't attack Gore, I just pointed out that defending him isn't critical to our movement, or shouldn't be, and that the more we insist on having a single figurehead as our leader, the more vulnerable the movement is to ad hominem attacks on the messenger, instead of the message.

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