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"When the President does it, it's not illegal" - Richard Nixon, 1974; US Congress, 2008
by nightsweat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 11:49:51 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:19:45 PM PDT
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room! - President Merkin Muffley
by AlyoshaKaramazov on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:20:56 PM PDT
Join us in the Grieving Room on Monday evenings to discuss mourning and loss.
by Dem in the heart of Texas on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:08:27 PM PDT
add another party to the heap of irrelevant third parties.
Feingold is my hero.
by Marc in CA on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:03:41 PM PDT
There is no avant garde. There are only people who are a little late. --Edgar Varese
by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:08:52 PM PDT
then her and Ralph Nader can ensure a McCain victory, setting up Hillary for 2012...
by MJ via Chicago on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:21:20 PM PDT
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:52:22 PM PDT
WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?
Go home to RedState.
Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.
by alizard on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:13:49 PM PDT
for so long?!? (UID = 8313)
I'm shocked that someone that's been on this site for so long could support a McVain presidency for any reason. I understand that Hillary supporters want her to be Prez, but do you really want it that bad?!?
by MJ via Chicago on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:28:51 PM PDT
Rupert Murdoch is on the Associated Press Board of Directors!!!
by Lava20 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:12:43 PM PDT
I've been coming here and gathering info to use against Bush on local forums in my very Republican region of western MD. I've been very successful at if I say so myself. But I've never bought it all and being an independent I've never been blinded by party loyalty like most members of this site.
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:19:54 PM PDT
He wouldn't vote for a Republican even if he were Abraham Lincoln.
by Lava20 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:40:14 PM PDT
that the 2 sites aren't that much different.
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:51:29 PM PDT
by michlawa2 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:53:20 PM PDT
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:56:56 PM PDT
In response to your "I'll give your that"
I dunno. We'll have to see if he a) gets elected, and then b) F's up as badly as Bush, then check the approval ratings.
It's pretty clear that both parties have a number of people who are "my party right or wrong" types. One reason I vote Dem (when the other choice is an R), is that I tend to think the Dems have fewer of those than the R's.
I think you're pretty off-base in applying that label only to Obama supporters, though. What HRC is doing right now is a violent act against many of the ideals the "Party" claims to value by engaging in pretty scurrilous and divisive tactics. It's effective hardball politics that plays well on the state and local level. But I think what you find of DKos are a lot of people who are interested in building a progressive movement.
Unfortunately, perhaps, all movements in this country require one of two parties to build on. We're generations from a more enlightened system. The course the Hillary! campaign is pursuing is threatening to dangerously fracture the framework many of these people have appropriated to build their movement on. That tends to piss people off.
Another point--one perhaps more germane to your comparison of dead-enders from left or right: Most of the support that Obama is getting, he seems to be getting because he has found a way to make representations of policy sing to people's ideals.
Most people hold ideals closer than candidates. If it turns out that BHO is not who he says he is, I think you'll find that people will give up their support of him before they give up belief in their ideals. It's that degree of insistence on purity that has traditionally fractured the Democratic Party, after all. The Will Rogers line about not belonging to "any organized political party" because he's a Democrat comes from the tendency Dems have to assert a purity test. If BHO ever falls too far outside the allowable range, he'll get dropped.
The Clintons, in fact, are a case in point.
FWIW, I was an Edwards supporter. Now I'm behind Barak. What's coming out of HRC's compound is making me ill. But neither of them stands a chance of sinking the country the way W has done.
Borrowed Suits
by Gooch on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:54:52 PM PDT
as President using "centrist" DLC "principles", IOW, on behalf of Hillary's 'real people represented by K Street', Obama's support will go under the bus really, really fast.
And if the rest of the elected Democrats in Congress follow him in government of, by, and for the Fortune 1000, the Democratic Party is going under the bus.
by alizard on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:57:43 PM PDT
but I have no interest in either party or any movement associated with with either party. Independents have been used by both parties during election years and then dumped on when their support is no longer needed for decades. There's never been a more glaring example of that than Dkos IMO.
Personally, I'm thoroughly enjoying the fracturing of both parties that's occurring this cycle. The way I see it you're both driving more people to the middle and away from party politics.
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 09:06:07 PM PDT
by Gooch on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 09:59:04 AM PDT
but then, you're on a roll. Clintonistas are becoming as reality-free as Bushbots.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." John Lennon
by trashablanca on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:56:39 PM PDT
Also, not that much different? Compared to what? McCain and Obama/Hillary are similar to each other if you compare them to, say, Lenin or Napoleon, but as long as we're thinking about average American viewpoints, McCain and Obama are night and day.
by MrFakeName on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:02:06 PM PDT
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:07:00 PM PDT
War with Iran? Sounds good!
Justices Stevens and Ginsburg replaced with Scalia clones? Sounds even better!
Hey, so long as Hillary Clinton gets to be President!
How long will you celebrate if Obama loses in November, Jim? 24 hours? A week? Or will you party for four years straight?
by Collideascope on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:17:10 PM PDT
I'll pop the bottle of Dom Perignon I've been holding onto since November 2004.
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:55:23 PM PDT
He'll celebrate for life.
When McCain talks he sounds like an evil Mr. Rogers.
by clonecone on Thu Mar 13, 2008 at 12:18:40 PM PDT
by how2be1 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:47:52 PM PDT
All Clinton, all the time.
Sometimes the magic works.......sometimes it doesn't
by Unrepentant Liberal on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:50:11 PM PDT
The entire reason she continues to run this campaign is because she and Bill are afraid of losing their death grip on the Democratic Party. She wouldn't know how to start a 3rd party.
by Slatersan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:22:59 PM PDT
in regard to both the grip on the traditional elements of the Democratic Party and not knowing how to start a third party. Pssst! It's at the grass roots.
by Heart of the Rockies on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:34:54 PM PDT
If Hillary in any way jeopardizes the Democratic ticket (i.e. Obama) during the general - she's done. No loyal Democrat will ever vote for her in a primary - be it 2012, 2016, 2020, 2024, ...
Two months ago, I had nothing but respect for Hillary - I was a supporter of her candidacy and a contributor to her campaign. I thought she'd be a great President.
But that was before she played the Fear Card against her Democratic field. Before her and Bill played the race card. Before she started categorizing states as "important" or "unimportant". Before she started manipulating debate footage of Obama to make him appear "blacker". Before she started endorsing McCain.
I don't even know this woman. But I know that I sure don't want her to be President. Ever. Simply put: her values in no way reflect my values.
I'm done with Hillary - and I suspect that I'm not alone in that. Even if she did ever clue into how to start a successful third party, she'd find that grass roots can't grow in poisoned soil.
by kautrey on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:35:08 PM PDT
A 3rd Party. What do you think the Democratic Leadership Council has been? Reform the Democrats to be more Republican...
You could call it a moderate party -- but the Clintons have made neough enemies on both sides of teh political fray that her running as a 3rd party choice would only further divide America.
That's all this country needs right now... Polarization and the divide-and-conquer strategy continuing.
Each election year is an ethics test for the mainstream media, and the paper is invariably returned with "See Me After Class"
by jpfdeuce on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:53:59 PM PDT
I wouldn't. What America calls "centrism" is considered right-wing everywhere else in the world. At best, the DLC would be considered "moderate" right-wing.
by alizard on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:20:21 PM PDT
I just keep thinking back to Michael Moore's comment about Clinton being "The best Republican president that thsi country has ever had."
by jpfdeuce on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:28:24 PM PDT
just kidding, though Eisenhower signed off on a good part of the post-WW2 programs for building the middle class. Building the middle class was a major public policy goal in the 1950s and early 1960s.
I suspect that Abe Lincoln was the best Republican president we ever had, and we can argue about whether Bill Clinton or Dwight Eisenhower deserve second place.
by alizard on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 04:48:04 PM PDT
I loved President Clinton when he was in office, but when I see what he and his wife are willing to justify and allow themselves now, in their quest for power at any cost...I'm starting to think that the Democratic Party was just the most promising wagon for them to hitch on to, to take them where they wanted to go. Now that it's not working out so well, they're willing to destroy the wagon. To them, it's just an old wagon that has outlived its usefulness.
Well, we're the mules and we're fighting back! It's OUR wagon.
"...no man can be sure that he may not be to-morrow the victim of a spirit of injustice, by which he may be a gainer to-day." Hamilton, Federalist 78
by beabea on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:12:28 PM PDT
Because independants would never have her.
;-)
Sic transit gloria mundi - ancient Roman proverb
by kovie on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:07:29 PM PDT
aren't voting for her.
by Slatersan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:23:17 PM PDT
NOT!!
The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya
by MadScientist on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:24:54 PM PDT
by griz4u on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:40:12 PM PDT
Clearly her dream ticket is Clinton/McCain.
by Lava20 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:41:06 PM PDT
...cuz John's already got his party nomination locked up. Unlike some OTHER people who shall remain name(d Hillary)less...
by jpfdeuce on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:55:43 PM PDT
on K/O - her comments were not those of a presumptive nominee about the nominee of the other party, they were the comments of someone gunning to be VP.
by Dem in the heart of Texas on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:09:55 PM PDT
...were those of a commentator about to take over a canceled TV pundit's timeslot.
Happy trails, Tucker! :)
by jpfdeuce on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:26:16 PM PDT
Harold! Call me! **wink**
Ugh
by jpfdeuce on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:54:38 PM PDT
by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:14:26 PM PDT
by jpfdeuce on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:24:44 PM PDT
by thepdxbikerboy on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:03:55 PM PDT
I don't know of a single indie that will vote for her. I'm sure there are some, but all the ones I know are for Obama.
Good Luck with that.
"Dear Mr. President, there are too many states nowadays. Please eliminate three. I am not a crackpot." - Grandpa Simpson
by ourhispanicvoices on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:27:08 PM PDT
by Jim Riggs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:03:25 PM PDT
even in our own party who will not vote for Barack.
But it is fallacious to conclude that because of that he is not electable in November. Of the three still in the race, there is only ONE candidate who has ZERO chance of becoming president, and that is Hillary Clinton. Even if she somehow finegled her way to the nomination, she will lose the entire black vote PLUS a helluva lot of the rest of us who have some respect for democracy, more than enough to hand the election to McCain.
The sooner she and her supporters realize this, the better.
Never give up! Never surrender!
by oscarsmom on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:14:08 PM PDT
"she will lose the entire black vote"
I highly doubt that. There's more to being black than voting black (not that I'm black). BHO is not getting every black vote as it is. Come the general, if Hillary is the nominee, I think she'd garner plenty of votes from black Americans. Probably not as many as she would have before this mess, and probably not as many as Bill. But I think you're way off base on this claim. Be careful of thinking of people as an undifferentiated mass.
by Gooch on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:05:10 PM PDT
most of my friends are indies or repubs.. and they all hate HRC
by Capt Morgan on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:58:27 PM PDT
by Heart of the Rockies on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:33:43 PM PDT
Guess who's gonna get me to change back to Dem for the primaries?
The Big O
by NewCon06 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:52:31 PM PDT
by jayjaybear on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:26:15 PM PDT
Me. Hillary is despicable. He scorched earth campaign has exposed her true self. If I wanted a war hawk in the white house, I'd vote McCain.
But I don't. So Go Obamma!
Anyone for a quick game of Chess.
by CitizenOfEarth on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:56:32 PM PDT
of CFL national party.
I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. -John Stuart Mill
by word player on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:03:21 PM PDT
by mikeinsf on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:11:17 PM PDT
After the voters make her take her ball and go home, that would guarantee a strong, well funded primary challenge. . . and one less Liebercrat in the Senate.
by alizard on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:13:05 PM PDT
I'm an independent and I would vote for a mange-ridden rat before I'd vote for Hillieberman.
McKinney/Clemente 2008: Parties that sell out the Constitution don't get my support or my vote.
by simca on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:44:12 PM PDT
mange-ridden rat
by Lava20 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:36:19 PM PDT
She's gonna follow Lieberman's lead and form the "Clintons for Clinton" Party...
Grandpa Simpson is a cartoon character...John McCain is an actual person... McCain '08: We can't spare the change
by wry twinger on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:44:40 PM PDT
by Unrepentant Liberal on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:52:07 PM PDT
Will be voting for Obama, thanks.
"There he goes again! Who's laughing now, betch?" -- Jimmy Carter
by slippytoad on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:47:55 PM PDT
Tailor324 recommended 0 times. Nightsweat's reply: 69 recs (as of this writing).
Nightsweat wins.
"Never be petty; always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don't win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself." - R.M. Nixon
by jhooversnyder on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:22:31 PM PDT
...you use Hillary-math in which case Tailor324 wins by a landslide.
barrel
Earthbound but aspiring...
by barrel of laughs on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:53:28 PM PDT
Nightsweat is a boutique, latte-sipping, small state voter. What do they matter?
by Dem in the heart of Texas on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:10:55 PM PDT
OK, so I happen to have a latte in my hand right now, but...
And I do live in a state that no longer matters...
Do you have a camera in my office or something?
by nightsweat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:16:47 PM PDT
I'm in Texas:
I'm so confused...I don't know if I count or not.
And my older brother is in Nevada. So does he count? He doesn't drink coffee...but Las Vegas has the highest percentage of cell phone users...
H E L P M E !
by Lava20 on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 02:48:16 PM PDT
I feel like tipping you with real money.
by pasadena beggar on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 12:51:33 PM PDT
I'm-a sure we can work something out here... :)
by nightsweat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:15:50 PM PDT
239 recs and counting for a 4-word triple-indented comment.
Seems like you summed up a common sentiment quite nicely there nightsweat.
Seek first and final principles at The Mean Free Path.
by Cream Puff on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 01:51:30 PM PDT
I've never had a comment get that many recs. Obviously we are all thinking the same thing.
by nightsweat on Wed Mar 12, 2008 at 03:55:20 PM PDT
wide narrow
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