This sort of brinkmanship is idiotic.

is if we sat in on a meeting with Bush and Cheney. Why they would say it, I think, would have something to do with laying down the basis for justification and conning the people into going along with it.

What do you suppose Cheney was meeting with all those Mideast nations for all of a sudden?

Blood thirsty madmen?

is an oversimplification. Clearly, they're nuts, but of the "rational" sort, in the sense that there's a method to their madness. This isn't simply about a handful of powerful men's mad dreams of empire, glory and profit (although, of course, that's part of it). This is also about these men's belief that the collapse of the USSR in the post-cold war period and the power vacuum that it created, along with the coming (if not passing) of peak oil, along with the rise in power of Russia and China, who were not yet able to militarily compete with the US, but would likely be able to in a decade or two, fueld by Russian natural resources, and Chinese goods, presented both unique opportunities for US global gain, along with unique global perils for it, that in their minds we would be both foolish and irresponsible to not address properly. As they saw it, if we didn't do certain things now, we'd not only forsake a unique historical opportunity to become the world's sole and lasting hyperpower, which we only had a decade or so to become, but endanger ourselves as Russia and China rose in wealth and power, and the rest of the world aligned with them against us. It wasn't just about maximizing our potential power and gain, but minimizing our potential peril and loss. Seen from a certain perspective, this was an entirely rational analysis, and response.

It was also, of course, not the only possible rational analysis or response to these dangers and opportunities--let alone the most moral, astute and wise ones--just the ones that people like Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumsfeld, Rice, etc., decided were the right ones. And thus the last 7+ years. This was all planned out well in advance. I don't know about 9/11, but Iraq was clearly a major part of it, as now appears to be Iran. In their minds, for their plan to work, they HAVE to attack Iran, or else it all falls apart. A strong Iran means that we have to stay in Iraq forever, which even they know we cannot afford to do. A weak Iran though means that we can leave Iraq without its needing to be too strong and stable. Their relative weakness will be good enough for our needs (as they see these needs, of course). So it's not merely a matter of wanting to attack Iran, but rather a matter of needing to attack Iran, for the policies of the past 7 years to make sense, and come to fruition. It doesn't mean that they will attack Iran, as various forces are working against them. But I believe that if they're not assured of a McCain victory, which would make an attack on Iran less urgent, because they'll have 4 more years to do it, they will do everything within their power to attack Iran before they leave office. I can't imagine that they won't try. The question is whether they'll be able to, or, barring that, whether they'll be able to assure McCain of the presidency.

Incidentally, it is precisely such thinking, i.e. a desire to both exploit windows of opportunity and forestall emerging threats, that motivated the Nazis, so I don't think that Godwin is really an issue here. I've made the comparison myself at times. If neoconservatism is about projecting and employing military power to both defend one's interests and expand one's power globally, then both Hitler and Cheney are neocons. I can't see any other way to look at it. Certainly from what I've seen of Cheney he wouldn't hesitate to employ at least some of the tactics and methods that they Nazis used. And, in reality, he already has--torture, illegal imprisonment and domestic surveillance, propaganda, invading non-threatening countries, military expansion, etc. The difference right now is more a matter of scale, not nature. And that too might change eventually, if he and his fellow neocons are able to take this much further. I'm not convinced that they can, or will, but that's more a matter of ability than will. The will is there, but the conditions may or may not allow it.

We are being ruled by, and at the relative mercy of, "rational" madmen. I simply can't view it any other way that makes sense to me. That "So" that he uttered to Martha Raddatz the other day sent creepy chills up my spine. The man is a complete and utter sociopath. Of that I have zero doubt. This is not a normal or well person. Major screws loose here, in the moral and mental departments, even if he's also very, very smart. Not unlike, um, well, you know. The only question is whether he'll be able to take this all the way. I'm not sure that he can, or will. But I'm no expert, just an observer.

And as a hopefully irrelevant aside, I find it hugely disturbing that Hillary would feed right into the neocon agenda by essentially promoting McCain over Obama on matters of national security, foreign policy and the military. It's almost like she's in on it, and if she can't win, she want McCain to win. I know that I'm seriously crossing over into tinfoil hat territory here, but as her consiglieri Mark Penn likes to say, it "raises serious questions". We are truly living in strange and frightening times.

I think that this is clear by now.  The "So" comment was indicative that they don't CARE what anyone else thinks.  Will they attack Iran?  I'd lay dollars to donuts they will inflate any supposed threat to excuse it, and use the AUMF to defend their actions.  In fact, they've already indicated that this would be their rational.

These people don't need to invade, they can just toast Iran with a nuke - and somehow they think our troops would be immune to fallout, even though they are in a direct line of fallout.... frankly though, I don't think these neocons care even if they directly nuked our troops.  I swear they are using them up till they are of no use.  Iran should be insisting on negotiations through the UN right now, and raising a big stink, but they seem to be cowed.

I hope our military will stand up to them.

If they nuke Iran?  Watch out for the reaction of China and Russia.  They are allies with Iran, they have bases there.  It won't be pretty.