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  •  Yea, but if he doesn't get her supporters (1+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    koNko

    to vote for him in the general election (and there is real evidence that all assumptions are up for grabs in this election), then he'll lose the general.  

    And, for a lot of her supporters, at least my experince with them, its not about policy - its about the person

    •  Anyone--ANYONE-who votes for McCain (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      koNko

      or third party, or doesn't vote at all, because of this, is not, never was, and never will be a Democrat. They just thought that they were. Read my sig line. I mean it.

      Personally, I think that most will vote "D" whoever it is. There will be a cooling down and then healing period, and all will be fine with most Dems by November. We're going to rally around the winner, and take out the GOP. Trust me, it'll happen. People say things in the heat of battle (myself included) that they don't really mean. The stakes just aren't that high, compared to the stakes with the other side.

      Sic transit gloria mundi - ancient Roman proverb

      by kovie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:18:18 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Healing is not a one way street (1+ / 0-)

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        koNko

        thats what you don't seem to get.  And, no, its not just about supporters, either.

        Let me ask you a question - honest answer - if you had to choose, between Obama winning the General, but with Hillary becoming Senate Majority Leader, or alternatively, Obama losing the general, but the Clintons permanently out of politics, which would you choose?

        •  Man that's easy (1+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          koNko

          The first option in a heartbeat. Of course, I'd rather he win and someone else become leader (Dodd would be my pick--he's earned it and would make a great leader). But if the condition for Obama becoming president is Hillary becoming leader, let's do it.

          Unlike what a lot of Clintonites are currently saying (but which I don't believe most of them mean), I'm not into "If I can't win, we all lose". Never have been, never will be. If by some chance she wins the nomination, she'll get my vote. Period. I won't be happy about it. But my feelings are totally irrelevant in the scheme of things.

          Sic transit gloria mundi - ancient Roman proverb

          by kovie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:28:51 AM PDT

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          •  Then do me a favor (3+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Fabian, koNko, Dcoronata

            and frankly, Obama as well - don't be so quick to say things like

            Hillary needs to work out a deal with her conscience, and soul, and perhaps mind. Obama has nothing to do with any of them. Her meltdown is not his fault.

            Its not about Hillary, or Obama - its about getting a Democratic President.  And part of that will require some healing within the party, and getting the supporters of the losing side to join those of the winning side.

            And the best way to do that is to bring the loser into the fold, in some fashion.  And Senate Majority Leader, is no small potato (or, if your a Quayle Republican, potatoe)

            •  There can be no healing (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              koNko

              so long as the Clintons continues their scortched earth campaign. I'm ok with her staying in the race, but without going negative. When she stops doing that, the healing can begin. But not before. It makes no sense for him to reach out his hand until they stop this. And yes, I fully well realize that this SEEMS to contradict his "unity" and "reach out to the other side" rhetoric, but what people failed to realized about that is that he meant reaching out to and possibly uniting with people on the other side who are READY to be reached out to and unite with us, and who are prepared to abandon Rovian-style politics. He never meant that he'd reach out to people who won't play fair. And until the Clintons do, he's not going to do any reaching out. It would be pointless, stupid, and a sign of weakness (which the Clintons would no doubt pounce upon--they are sharks and anyone who doesn't see this is naive).

              And in any case, it's not the campaign itself that needs to be reached out to, but her supporters. Some of them have acted awfully, but most are, I'm sure, simply loyal, and hurt. And sure he'll need to reach out to them--and will. And most will come around eventually, I believe. Of course, if she tells them to not make peace with Obama as some sort of ransom to extract conditions from him, then all bets are off. When you lose, you LOSE. I'm not saying that he shouldn't and won't cut some deals in the end to make everyone happy. But on his terms, not hers. Presumptive presidents make deals, they don't have them dictated to them. He'd just appear weak and hurt himself in the general otherwise. He can't be seen as a provisional nominee who needs her support to win. He needs to make it clear that he's the leader of the party, not the shared leader.

              I suspect, though, that she'll try to cut some deal with him, and be foolish enough to be too adamant about. She's a smart policymaker, but a terrible politician, and tends to overplay her hand, and do so poorly. She's clumsy, inartful and tone deaf, and tends to overestimate her strengths (a sign of insecurity and political tone deafness, IMO). He can't let her succeed in this. Not out of vanity or foolish pride, but to lay down the law and let everyone know that he's the one and only nominee, and will not have terms dictated to him. Only then can any healing begin. He'd be a lot weaker against McCain if he caved to any such demands from Clinton and looked weak, than he would with some of her supporters refusing to support him if he stood his ground.

              I hate to say it, but Hillary's set herself up to be this year's Sister Souljah. And don't think for a second that he won't do to her what Bill did to the original back in '92. He will. He'll have to, if she forces him. Successful politics is about strength before it's about compassion. Always has been, always will be. But if we'll need healing, sure, fine. But only on his terms. That's the way it'll have to be.

              Sic transit gloria mundi - ancient Roman proverb

              by kovie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:52:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Carrot and Stick aproach (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                koNko

                that has always been my personal thought.  What I'd like to see happen is that the party leaders put Obama and Clinton in a room, and work out some deal, whereby the person who has the most pledged delegates will be the nominee, the dirty tricks stop, and in exchange, the person who didn't get the nominee would be Senate Majority leader (or something on par with that), conditioned upon us getting a Democratic president.  

                Alternatively, if the dirty campaigning doesn't stop, then the party leaders would throw their weight behind whoever is the likely nominee now, and would push for the political destruction of whoever is engaging in the dirty tricks.  

                I agree the dirty campaigning needs to stop, and now.  But you can't work out the deal before or after it stops.  Negotiations happen during the event.

                •  I think tht already happened. (0+ / 0-)

                  And the leaders got turned down.

                  Hence, the increasing number of public remarks to the effect of ending the cmpaigns before the Convention.

                  The Clintons aren't going to budge.

                  Bill: "We're not going anywhere."

                  We could read that two ways, but I'll guess he means they are in it to the bitter end.

                  Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

                  by koNko on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:47:09 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  McCain (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              koNko

              is a miserable choice because it looks like he'll just be an extension of what we have now.  However, not everyone is a Democrat, and the mud slinging between Clinton and Obama is making those voters uneasy.  They're both flawed and both damaged.  The trick is to get the rest of us to see that McCain is even worse.  It's too bad we have another election where non Democrats are faced with the lesser of two evils.  The most important thing  we need to remember is that any congressional or senate seats up for grabs MUST be won by ANYONE but a Republican.  We might survive a Republican Pres, but not a Republican House and Senate.

            •  Aren't you getting ahead of yourself? (0+ / 0-)

              Has Clinton conceeded and I missed it?

              Should Obama go public with an offer to make her Majority Leader?

              BTW, do President elects have authority to choose Majority Leader?

              Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

              by koNko on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:42:44 AM PDT

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        •  And Obama's side has nothing to apologize for (2+ / 0-)

          Recommended by:
          lauramp, koNko

          towards this "healing". Sure, he and his supporters have said and done some things that they shouldn't have. But comparatively speaking, it's not even close to what her side has to apologize for. "You're likeable enough, Hillary" and "Monster" are in no way comparable to "Jesse Jackson won SC too" and "Cocaine/Muslim".

          Sic transit gloria mundi - ancient Roman proverb

          by kovie on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 01:32:02 AM PDT

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        •  Is Obma trying to alienate Clinton supporters? (0+ / 0-)

          Sorry, but I've got to ask it because I just don't see Obama pulling the kind of divisive crap the Clinton camp engages in.

          Is he playing a "gender card" against her" No.

          Is he toadying up to Republican oppoenents and making unfavorable comparrison to her in the process? No.

          Is he shouting "Same on you Clinton"? No.

          Please elaboate. Please make an objective comparrison between the content, style and methods of these two campagins and explain where Obama needs to make ammends, particularly at a time Clinton keeps digging the hole deeper.

          As for your question, my answer is I will vote for whomever takes the prmary despite the fact that Clinton's campaign has done just about everything imaginable to convince me otherwise.

          Ask me about my daughter's future - Ko

          by koNko on Sun Mar 30, 2008 at 06:39:06 AM PDT

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