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Folks back home in the Rust Belt are hurting. They deserve answers the first time, not a bunch of parsing and false denials.
DONATE! / HillarysVoice
by Alegre on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:09:13 PM PDT
It's a damn shame that Bill and Hillary Clinton foisted NAFTA on them.
She's been a vocal NAFTA supporter for years. There are plenty of quotes.
And yet, she managed to project her own flip-flopping onto her opponent.
Shameless.
JOHN McCAIN = George W. Bush's 3rd term.
by chumley on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:25:48 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
"I can categorically say that no one has contacted our embassy or our ambassador," said Canadian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andre Lemay. "None of our officials at the embassy discussed anything with the runners up in the presidential campaign. We realize that one of the Canadian networks mentioned yesterday that such a call had been made. The report is untrue." When asked whether Ambassador Michael Wilson, the Canadian emissary to the U.S., had received a call from anyone in the Obama campaign, Lemay said he had not.
"I can categorically say that no one has contacted our embassy or our ambassador," said Canadian Foreign Ministry spokesman Andre Lemay. "None of our officials at the embassy discussed anything with the runners up in the presidential campaign. We realize that one of the Canadian networks mentioned yesterday that such a call had been made. The report is untrue."
When asked whether Ambassador Michael Wilson, the Canadian emissary to the U.S., had received a call from anyone in the Obama campaign, Lemay said he had not.
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:30:28 PM PDT
Since 75 per cent of Canadian exports go to the U.S., Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton's musings about reopening the North American free-trade pact had caused some concern. Mr. Brodie downplayed those concerns. "Quite a few people heard it," said one source in the room. "He said someone from (Hillary) Clinton's campaign is telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt. . . That someone called us and told us not to worry." Government officials did not deny the conversation took place.
Since 75 per cent of Canadian exports go to the U.S., Mr. Obama and Ms. Clinton's musings about reopening the North American free-trade pact had caused some concern.
Mr. Brodie downplayed those concerns.
"Quite a few people heard it," said one source in the room.
"He said someone from (Hillary) Clinton's campaign is telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt. . . That someone called us and told us not to worry."
Government officials did not deny the conversation took place.
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:34:26 PM PDT
denials out of camp obama - can you?
Spin away boys - spin away.
by Alegre on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:36:28 PM PDT
Between you and Susan Hu anymore. And that says all I really want to waste my time saying to you.
"Oh no...you changed your hair color? It's just so dark. You like it? And with your skin tone?" My Beloved Mom, December 25 2007, once again on notice.
by Christin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:39:48 PM PDT
as anything coming out of Bush's office would be. Conservative P.M. Steven Harper wants to see McCain become President.
Government should treat its citizens like human beings, not profit generating units for the Corporate Aristocracy to use and abuse any way they choose
by Lefty Coaster on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:50:52 PM PDT
when the Canadian government was denying Obama's involvement, did you?
No, I seem to remember all diaries on the wreck list were on the very same topic, and how Harper's denial proves that Obama is innocent, and Hillary is evil.
Sometimes, a cackle is the best medicine!
by ghost2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:33:32 PM PDT
I'd like to know has McCain's campaign contacted Harper about this matter.
by Lefty Coaster on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 09:37:31 AM PDT
propagandist Alegre. And your little jokes are getting stale. Remember, once you piss your integrity away you can't get it back.
When I had no roof / I made audacity my roof. --Robert Pinsky
by Crestingwave on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:50:19 PM PDT
If I had TU status, you'd get dinged for it.
The rhetoric of the right wing is being fixed around the policy of disinformation.
by MoronMike on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:55:32 PM PDT
Don't be a moron. Troll rating is for wimps.
There's only one good use for dinging, and that's dinging the thought police back.
by SuperCameron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:22:11 PM PDT
with attributions.
If you see one that is not, point it out and I'll remove the TR.
by catfish on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:26:23 PM PDT
Attributions? Attributing your arguments to cheap shills and surrogates whilst ignoring conflicting evidence is good editorial journalism to you?
by Crestingwave on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:57:46 PM PDT
is from Sandra Buckler. If you want to take her on something, fine, but this Canadian progressive does not. She's been caught redhanded lying (ooops... excuse me 'misspeaking') before.
Please do some research on the Harperites. They have their noses so far up the Republicans asses that they're permanently brown.
'It's true because Sandra Buckler and/or Stephen Harper says it's true'? Don't bet your life, or anything you value, on that.
The Grasshopper Lies Heavy
by FrankFrink on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:45:08 AM PDT
If you want to take her word on something,...
by FrankFrink on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:46:39 AM PDT
I think you are casting your pearls before swine. I, at least, appreciate you heartily.
I really must get off this nasty site. I keep trying to correct some of the idiots and find my stress level is rising daily. I really am quite sure that it is a lost cause. I have listened to Rush and laughed at the silly ditto-heads that agree with all his BS. And here it is on what used to be my favorite site. Sad.
by CanadaWest on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:18:16 PM PDT
and make up your own mind. I don't see that Obama was doing a wink-wink & nod-nod. But really, read the actual memo, realizing that it's a record of people's memory and may not perfectly reflect events.
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:25:13 PM PDT
just go. seriously. and take a good long look in he mirror while you're on the way out the door. yeah. that big blob of hypocrisy you see? that's you.
I really must get off this nasty site. I keep trying to correct some of the idiots and find my stress level is rising daily.
by Christin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:47:29 PM PDT
Ditto-head! LOL!
by CanadaWest on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:52:41 PM PDT
you said you were going. and you're still here. you're pathetic.
by Christin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:12:33 PM PDT
Alegre is casting her "pearls" before you.
It's called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it. - G. Carlin
by RabidNation on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:14:04 PM PDT
The Confluence (goldberry), and while you are there, check the blogroll on the right hand side of the screen. There are many, many worthy blogs there.
Try: TalkLeft and The Left Coaster (civil discussion of candidates). My daily read also includes Taylor Marsh, although mentioning her here is a sure recipe for inviting flames! [But I do not believe in being bullied.]
by ghost2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:40:08 PM PDT
"There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB
by denise b on Sun Mar 09, 2008 at 09:13:56 PM PDT
this diary has? Your diary is the only diary on the list that when I click into it there is not sidebars with the Recommendation button.. It is on every diary but yours...
Is it just me? Or have others had that problem. I would like to rec this diary....something seems odd
Debra
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:59:23 PM PDT
phenomonon...?
by PamelaD on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:20:24 PM PDT
on....then I saw your reply adn I said I found the sidebar and the rec button but it was just as disturbing.
We'll see if I get a reply......
Thanks for your reply
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:33:29 PM PDT
now you're even letting that fuckheaded fascist steven harper tell you what to believe.
one born every minute, as barnum said. hillary's base.
by RabidNation on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:12:03 PM PDT
They have conveniently forgotten that Obama quoted Canadian Embassy first to say, he didn't call them, and they rushed here to write 10 diaries on it, put them on the wreck list, and call Hillary supporters liars.
Thanks for a great job, again. We bow before you in humility!
by ghost2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:31:56 PM PDT
As long as we're talking about honesty...
Hillary Clinton had no direct role in bringing peace to Northern Ireland and is a "wee bit silly" for exaggerating the part she played, according to Lord Trimble of Lisnagarvey, the Nobel Peace Prize winner and former First Minister of the province.
Daily Telegraph
by maineiac on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:01:31 PM PDT
fell after NAFTA went into effect.
There is a tremendous difference between having free trade with policies that cushion those sectors of the economy that suffer from it, and having no trade at all.
We have a word for that difference. Depression.
by SuperCameron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:14:36 PM PDT
increased, as people moved to lesser-paying jobs
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:33:50 PM PDT
... at least not as far as I know.
BTW: In the long history of this site, has anyone had such a consistently low ratio of tip jar tips to diary comments?
Won't vote for the Dem? I guess your kids will thank you for the far-right Supreme Court.
by td on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:54:16 PM PDT
by SuperCameron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:15:43 PM PDT
about how Clinton is worse than Hitler, calling Wes Clark unpatriotic, and slapping a Yes We Can at the end of the poorly written 2 paragraphs, and I would get 50 recommends at a minimum.
That wouldn't make me any smarter or a better diarist.
And that's an especially odd comment from a longtime user who apparently has never written a diary.
by Partially Impartial on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:17:14 PM PDT
It does not take many words to tell the truth. - Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:38:17 PM PDT
But here's my recommendation via words.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:49:03 PM PDT
compunctions or a technical problem. I have no rec button in the sidebar for this diary.
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:00:50 PM PDT
I'm not known for either giving our lots of TR's nor receiving them (you can check that). I just lost my TU basically because I'm a Hillary supporter, nothing else. Like I said, check out my history if you like, and tell me WHY I lost my TU status. I'm quite curious myself. Perhaps you could help me find the answer. Been here since 2003, only lost it twice before (due to not being here for a while both times).
Fair? You tell me.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:11:07 PM PDT
TU only means you can hide comments. Losing TU means you can't hide or see hidden comments. You're saying you can't recommend the comment either?
Only this diary in the whole list of diaries do I have no sidebar in which I can recommend the diary.
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:16:28 PM PDT
but I can't recommend or HR comments at this time.
And I have no reason to believe that the removal of this ability had anything to do with my posting, as I'm not known for either excessive troll-ratings, nor being troll-rated. It just came out of the blue.
I just resent it, because I've been a TU here since 2003, and cannot, for the hell of me, figure out why my TU status got removed, when I see others posting vile comments, getting TR'd multiple times over and over, and still retain their TU status.
In other words, this site has no credible standards of fairness. Just my opinion, based on my own record and history, vs. some that spew bile day after day, and are never reprimanded. Just dumb and stupid. But then again, that's what this site has become lately.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:41:19 PM PDT
So I frequently have lost TU status....which meant I couldn't TR or see Hidden comments....but I never lost the abilty to rate a comment. I didn't think that was possible.
You can see I have been here a long time...but I don't get it.
I did check your comments and the problem I thought I saw was that while you didn't get TR'ed you got very few 4's at all. So I thought that would explain it. You know I assume there is some computer logorritham that compute that, but losing the ability to recommend I have never heard of.
Did you uprate a lots of TR'ed comments so they wanted to take that away from you. Something seems quite wrong.
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:50:59 PM PDT
Did you uprate a lots of TR'ed comments so they wanted to take that away from you.
You know, we Hillary supporters are in the minority here, and we get troll-rated far more often than Obama supporters. I do come to the aid to fellow Hillary supporters that are being troll-rated for nefarious gut level reasons, but once again, not nearly at the level of what happens on the other side.
Because we are in the minority, the same goes for the lack of upratings of my comments. There are few of us here (and I know most here wish we just all would go away), so of course I don't get as many uprates as Obama folks do. They instantly arrive in any diary we ever post, be it positive or negative, it doesn't matter. We instantly get bombarded by Obama trolls, disrupting anything positive we try to post, with snark, lies, smears, and personal assaults.
It's hard to even get uprated here, when people are deliberately being chased away in every single diary or thread we put forth.
So yes, perhaps my uprates don't match the overwhelming majority of gang-up uprates from the other side.
Does that mean my comments were abusive, less worthy of consideration? Does that mean just because I did not receive a "quota" of uprates, a lack of TR's for me, or a lack of TR's given to others, should automatically remove my TU status? If so, is that really fair and democratic? Or is it just the new thing going on here: the herd mentality wins out. Let's shut out the voices of those we don't want to hear?
You tell me. What are your thoughts. I've been here since 2003, and have never been through this kind of negativity, anywhere, ever, before. I just refuse to give up, as I feel this is not a Democratic way to treat people.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:12:33 PM PDT
And it has indeed become a less open minded place than it was in 2003....I think I go back to 2001 or 2002...my memory is foggy. I remember when there was the new sign in system and I didn't do it immediately. I think that was when it changed to Scoop.
I keep forgetting to ask...Is the sidebar with the recommendation button in the normal place on this diary on your computer. It's all the way at the bottom below the comments on pamela brown's as well.
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:23:47 PM PDT
you are missing so much fun here!!
I am also one of those who had my rating abilities taken, and I had received the grand total of perhaps 5 TR's. Further, if you read my comments, every one of those TR was for disagreement, not for the tone I took.
Apparently, they said they did this b/c the primary fights were getting out of hand, and they were trying to get a handle on the site. Worked like a charm, didn't it??
Some of the most civil posters here have had their rating abilities yanked. It's called "blogging while supporting Hillary".
by ghost2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:46:31 PM PDT
I see you too have a very low UID....I would love to know how many Obama supporters had their TU status pulled.
Can you recommend a this diary ....the rec button on my computer had it down below the comments
Can you recommend a comment or has that been pulled as well.
by debcoop on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 12:24:35 AM PDT
and comment.
No longer have the ability to uprate posts or add a HR ratings. I am still a TU, since I can see the hidden comments.
Whatever, I don't really care. I am here to defend Hillary and her supporters, as much as I can. That's it.
by ghost2 on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 01:55:21 AM PDT
perhaps your candidate will squeeze out a crocodile tear or two for you.
by RabidNation on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:18:13 PM PDT
by debcoop on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:20:26 PM PDT
This one needs therapy.
by Partially Impartial on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:40:47 PM PDT
Thanks. I've often wondered about him. What I don't get is how he's still being tolerated around here while I hunker along, with nothing like a history like his.
Yeah, I know, I'm just whining here, but damn, where's the "rules", you know, the ones that Obama now shrills for to make the caucus delegates the one and only "true" determination of legitimacy, like "fucking the voters". Sorry. It's late, I'm tired, and I'm tired of masking my outrage in politeness.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:46:26 PM PDT
that the Obamacrats flock to her diaries to make comments. She's apparently touching a nerve.
Another proud Clintonista opposing John McCain.
by psychodrew on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:32:35 PM PDT
with a potential +sign associated with a diary.
They're rampant, at the loose, and completely out of control. Zero brain factor involved at their inadvertent reflexes. A sorry sight indeed.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:40:47 PM PDT
you wrote that in a diary yesterday? that you were outta here and would not be back. i think it was in a goodbye cruel world diary. so why are you still here? seriously. i don't get it. i saw your post, and how you were seething with anger at this site, markos, and it's users. you call us names - you insult us - and you seem miserable being here. i'm not trying to stir up any shit saying that. i just don't get why anyone who hates a blog so much would keep posting on it. it's kinda strange/sad. i can't stand what happened over at mydd. so i don't go there anymore or read it. and i've been reading it for years. but it's become a hate obama site 24/7. so i just. don't. go. there.
you feel this is a hate hillary site. (i don't, but we just have different opinions). but you keep posting and reading and posting and reading. and getting more angry each time. i know you have to have a life outside of this?
by Christin on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:24:53 PM PDT
I did not post a GBCW diary.
I posted a comment IN a GBCW diary. And I've decided to stick around, just to annoy the hell out of you.
Just twist things around, make things up, assault, slime, lie and cheat.
That's exactly why I'm sticking around. You all want every one of us out of here, and I won't have it. I've been here a long time, like when the site truly represented the values of working together, and I'll be damned if I'm just going to quit because a bunch of bullies like you try to drive everyone of us that helped create this site, but has a different choice of nominee, out of here. I considered that briefly, but no. I'm still here, and I will stay here as long as I want to - not a moment longer, but not a moment shorter.
And you will just have to live with it. This site is as much my site as it is yours. Yes, I was tempted to just give up because of the overall intimidation factor from you all kind gentle uniting folks, but I've decided to stick around to help create a kind, gentle, uniting future - with your help. Let's see what happens, will you?
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:54:49 PM PDT
You bet I'm angry. You got that one right (at least).
What's your life outside here? Care to share? You go first. I'll follow your heroism afterwards.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:59:14 PM PDT
In fact, I'd single out a single quote from his notes:
On NAFTA, Goolsbee suggested that Obama is less about fundamentally changing the agreement and more infavor of strenghening/clarifying language on labour mobility and environment and trying to establish these are more *core* principles of the agreement.
(emphasis on "core" in the original)
I'd note that "*core*" was the only word in the entire passage that was emphasized by Georges Rioux, the consul general who met with Goolsbee. This passage, and its emphasis, specifically on labor and the environment, make it pretty clear what was going on. Obama was signaling to Canada that he will seek core changes to the principles of the NAFTA agreement. This is completely in-line with what Obama himself has said. It is completely different from Hillary's contention that Obama's campaign was saying one thing to the public and another thing to Canadian officials.
I think that Obama's campaign's statement that the memo "mis-characterizes" the meeting is well supported by the evidence in the memo. People have different memories about events, perhaps Goolsbee may have mentioned that broad political brushes used during the campaign should not concern them, and perhaps this was turned into a more general mis-understanding of the meeting. However, it's very clear from the meeting that Goolsbee was telling Candada that core reform to the principles of the NAFTA agreement on Labor and the Environment were part of Obama's policy. This part of the memo echos, if not re-affirms what Obama said in the debate the night before the media storm.
Clinton's characterization of this as: "saying one thing in public, but a different thing in private", is a smear. She knows it. Her supporters -- like you Alegre -- know it. It is ugly. It's wrong.
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 08:58:03 PM PDT
So you're saying the memo said that the campaign would paint NAFTA with a broad stroke, and that paint job would look different than the candidates actual intent.
But somehow I'm supposed to believe this is something other than what it is?
Obama is a typical, cynical politician who will say one thing and do another without batting an eye. It's clear to me. I don't see how it can't be obvious to everyone.
by SuperCameron on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:29:45 PM PDT
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:41:05 PM PDT
From the memo: ...... he cautioned that the messaging should not be taken our of context and should be view as more about political posturing than a clear articulation of policy plans. he also suggested that of the Democratic candidates Obama had been the least protectionist.....
This was followed by (unintelligable) as if the person writing the notes of the meeting was listening to a tape recording.
by CanadaWest on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:29:58 PM PDT
There is alot of broad-brush strokes, sound-bytes in U.S. politics that may be misinterpreted -- they are not "clear articulation of policy plans". That's fine. It's true. It doesn't mean that Obama didn't go there to tell them what his policies were though, and I'd once again re-enforce that the stress on "core principles" was probably words that Goolsbee used himself. You can disagree about some of this, but to call the memo a smoking gun about a wink-wink/nod-nod is a blatant mis-characterization. You don't have details like this if concrete policies weren't being discussed. Overall, the memo gives a really good impression of what happened. Its probably not exactly the message that Goolsbee was trying to effect, but, it's clear to me that he was trying to send a message:
Obama's policy is for "core principle" change to NAFTA.
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:38:54 PM PDT
by PamelaD on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:25:21 PM PDT
thank you, I've yet to see one
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 10:34:44 PM PDT
video of Obama on his campaign plane.
But you can go find the link.
by ghost2 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 11:51:16 PM PDT
my guess is that you're reading Clinton Campaign Nonsense into what he actually said
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 08:09:10 AM PDT
Condense, please, to make your points. This site is getting too much without some folks being able to make their point in fewer words. None of us have the time to wade through the wordage of those who cannot condense their points.
Sorry, it's internet time, no longer the time of being able to swing on the front porch in the evening, discussing the days' events and current politics.
Keep it short and sweet to get your message across. Hire an editor if need be.
by Gabriele Droz on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:45:56 PM PDT
in this post
by Great Uncle Bulgaria on Fri Mar 07, 2008 at 09:52:54 PM PDT
that Barack Obama owns NAFTAgate and nobody else.
And I’ll echo your sig: plz remember to donate and drive Hillary to Victory. She knows how to work hard. Anytime.
Follow the development at RezkoWatch
by DemAC on Sat Mar 08, 2008 at 08:45:17 AM PDT
wide narrow
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