View Story | 347 comments
Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)
Yea, I know this diary sounds sort of paranoid and konspiracy-minded. But then the information available lends one to think these things.
If you can explain it in another way that doesn't scare me, please try.
I suspect God of being a leftist intellectual
by gjohnsit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:16:17 PM PDT
but...I keep saying, "omg" after I read your diaries.
Join us at Bookflurries: Bookchat on Wednesday nights 8:00 PM EST
by cfk on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:18:15 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
what can I do, gjohnsit? what details do I need to know?
I have a little bit in stock, a little bit in my IRA, and a little cash and some food in the house.
Republicans: Your history has earned you a new mantra: "War and waste." ~~ Marta Jorgensen (CA-24 in '08)
I am an Edwards Democrat!
by Scubaval on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:21:54 PM PDT
How do you make any long term investment decisions in this setting?
There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it. ~Author Unknown
by VA Breeze on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:35:51 PM PDT
Pay off your debts - and fast
Invest in needed commodities, bought in bulk at lower pricing. Best investment you can make right now.
Start a vegetable garden. Food is going to get expensive soon.
"If impeachment is off the table, so is democracy." -teacherken
by offgrid on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:49:25 PM PDT
I don't know. If the Fed has to resort to printing money we will be talking about lots of inflation. That is the best time to have fixed payment debts (NOT ARMS!) because it makes your debt smaller in real terms.
"Make it stop. Please, make it stop."
by Democrat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:06:12 AM PDT
Depends on your cash on hand, and your income security.
by offgrid on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:23:59 AM PDT
THAT is a great idea. Now is the time to plant for the year and get that going now.
But I have an image in my head of Dustin Hoffman playing Willy Loman out in his garden at midnight trying to plant a garden.....
That seems to be the image for the entire economy right now.
by Democrat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:07:45 AM PDT
why do you think its' gone through the roof. The plutocrats know exactly where their plan to destroy america is leading.
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever TJ
by cdreid on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:23:20 PM PDT
We aren't talking about The End Of Civilization. So don't bother with the shotguns and victory gardens.
Think high inflation and what that means. If you still aren't sure, then think what happened in the 1970's, and then make it twice as bad.
by gjohnsit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:45:36 PM PDT
Face it, the federal government has been lying to us about the real inflation for years now, as the "volatile" food and energy sectors which are conveniently excluded from "core inflation" have been consistently skyrocketing.
We're pro-choice on everything! - Libertarian slogan
by CA Libertarian on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:52:01 PM PDT
I totally agree. In fact, I've ranted on that fact half a dozen times here. My most recent rant is here.
by gjohnsit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:30:24 PM PDT
The Fed lie to us? Surely you jest!
G7 readies response to market crisis Excerpt: Finance ministers from the G7 countries have also invited leading bank chiefs to discuss the global markets crisis which could cost close to $1 trillion (506 billion pounds) in losses and downgrades in the value of toxic assets accrued over years of investor euphoria. The moves to improve the behaviour of banks, and supervision of financial markets more generally, are due to be announced at a G7 meeting on Friday in Washington. They are based on recommendations from the Financial Stability Forum, a body they created in response to Asian financial crises of the late 1990s.
G7 readies response to market crisis Excerpt:
Finance ministers from the G7 countries have also invited leading bank chiefs to discuss the global markets crisis which could cost close to $1 trillion (506 billion pounds) in losses and downgrades in the value of toxic assets accrued over years of investor euphoria.
The moves to improve the behaviour of banks, and supervision of financial markets more generally, are due to be announced at a G7 meeting on Friday in Washington. They are based on recommendations from the Financial Stability Forum, a body they created in response to Asian financial crises of the late 1990s.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/...
by Flint on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:12:02 PM PDT
they let them print just Anything!! over there. Sheesh u go reading stuff like the Guardian et al you're going to fill your head with all sorts of troubling ideas!
If americans ever want a serious, legitimate, reality based 'paper of record' they'll abandon the NYT/WST birdcageliner garbage and start reading the Guardian.
by cdreid on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:39:10 PM PDT
gas lines?
So far we are just seeing high prices. If Peak Oil is real, watch for gas lines eventually too!
I fear that the end of cheap energy is going to have a very serious impact on our lifestyles over the next year or two. It may not be the end of civilization....but it ain't gonna be pretty.
I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong- Feynman
by taonow on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:54:15 PM PDT
They absolutely depend on cheap gas out there.
My dogs think we're all totally nuts, but how do I explain Daylight Savings Time to them?
by Shiborg on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:00:18 PM PDT
Almost every region of the country is dependent on either cheap gas or cheap home heating fuel oil. Most other countries are as dependent on these as we are.
by Knarfc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:19:06 PM PDT
And cheap energy in general.
Much of what you are seeing with regard to spiking energy and food prices is the misguided ethanol policy set forth by DC bureaucrats and their K Street agribusiness lobbyist buddies.
The government has dictated that a certain floor for production of biofuels must be met. In order to meet these minimums, agribusiness plants more crops dedicated to biofuels. They haven't suddenly found themselves with a like increase in arable land, so naturally in order to plant these crops, food crop planting decreases. The decrease in the availability of food crops
Meanwhile, the crops diverted from food to biofuel require fuel to be used in growing and developng the biofuel from the crops. The joke is that only about 1.5G of ethanols is produced for every gallon of diesel. However, the energy content of the gallon of diesel is roughly the same as the 1.5 gallons of ethanol. Plus most care realize a significant reduction in fuel economy, so that not only do care see no decrease in the cost of ethanod fuel, I get to buy more of it. Meanwhile big ag lines it pockets.
Obama has Wes Clark in his corner, but the only person he knows with the experience of getting a bomb on target is Bill Ayers.
by jqmilktoast on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:23:12 PM PDT
out of conservation programs. So the vicious cycle ramps up again. Soil loss= less production in the long run. Unfortunately, the first line of this article says a lot about knowledge of farming, soil, and soil productivity. Or lack thereof.
Out on the farm, the ducks and pheasants are losing ground.
My internal editor changes it to
Out on the farm, the ducks and pheasants and humans are losing ground.
It'll take a while, but dustbowl comin' back.
Hands off my Social Security, John McCain.
by emmasnacker on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:00:04 AM PDT
The Western states, especially the Southwestern deserts are completely dependent on cheap oil to fly cargo and transport goods over long distances that cannot be produced or grown there without vast amounts of imported water. James Howard Kunstler has written for some time of how the carrying capacity of the West has been far outstripped.
Water from the already overburdened Colorado River has to be pumped uphill 1500 feet to Phoenix, 2500 feet to Tucson. You think it flows uphill without massive energy to pump it there? Don't place your bets on Las Vegas continuing to be a major hub for airlines and one of the top vacation destinations as the airlines continue to go bankrupt due to the cost of fuel, and the the working class is forced to abandon air travel and Las Vegas won't survive on elite tourism alone.
Just use some common sense. It's not all that hard really.
I've always been very sensitive to the natural world and ashamed of my species for it's treatment of it and ... that's my cross to bear" Joni Mitchell 2007
by codigo rojo on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:38:33 PM PDT
The bottom 80% of America controls 15% of the wealth, which means the top 20% controls 85% of the wealth, and the rich are still getting richer.
Of course Las Vegas can subsist on elite tourism. Most of the people are like extras in a movie set to Las Vegas.
The sleep of reason brings forth monsters. --Goya
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:45:15 PM PDT
busiest airport in the US and 11th busiest in the world in terms of passengers. The elite of which you speak don't fly coach class, which account for the bulk of those passengers. Are the elite of which you speak going to be coming in the same numbers to enable Las Vegas to grow and be economically viable?
Subsist...maybe, but certainly not the #1 and #2 growth numbers domestically which Clark County (Las Vegas) and Maricopa County (Phoenix) have racked up and been interchanging in recent years.
by codigo rojo on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:05:17 PM PDT
to Las Vegas in the same numbers as us plebes. But they spend a whole hell-uv-a-lot more money. So what do you think Las Vegas likes more? Bodies or money? Like I said, we are extras in the scene. Monte Carlo has survived and prospered for centuries without the lower class intruding.
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:26:03 PM PDT
Post Ironical
by lifexpert on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:18:22 PM PDT
by northsylvania on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:26:13 AM PDT
Virtually everything your eyes see is dependent upon cheap fossil fuel.
Higgins: It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. Maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then? Joe Turner: Ask them? Higgins: Not now - then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!
Higgins: It's simple economics. Today it's oil, right? In ten or fifteen years, food. Plutonium. Maybe even sooner. Now, what do you think the people are gonna want us to do then?
Joe Turner: Ask them?
Higgins: Not now - then! Ask 'em when they're running out. Ask 'em when there's no heat in their homes and they're cold. Ask 'em when their engines stop. Ask 'em when people who have never known hunger start going hungry. You wanna know something? They won't want us to ask 'em. They'll just want us to get it for 'em!
Don't ask 'em when they can still get every item they buy at the grocery placed into their basket in its very own shiny plastic bag.
by superscalar on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:22:17 PM PDT
According to Kunstler,
"Expect gas shortages, as the U.S. has trouble paying its bills..."
www.kunstler.com/
by Cliss on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:07:29 PM PDT
of artificial shortages caused by interference in the market (i. e. price controls and rationing), not from high prices.
There is no need to wait in line for something one cannot afford to pay for.
by Knarfc on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:21:19 PM PDT
Oil and gas may actually get cheaper (at least in euros) as the dollar and the U.S. economy tanks.
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:46:45 PM PDT
..have you ever seen the lines at the gas station selling for 40 cents/gallon less than anyone else in town....
by taonow on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:02:23 AM PDT
is a myth that keeps being disproven. But the doomsday theorists simply raise the criteria every time it is.
by cdreid on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:40:11 PM PDT
to the booming Pennsylvania and Texas oil economy, where it all started. Oh, right... those fields are basically dying or tapped dry.
"Raise" the criteria? Saying that something is a myth has a lot of fallback positions (the peak is later than projected, the oil's there but harder to access, shortages are just a marketplace fiction, the planet is a giant ballon filled with black goo, who cares if there's coal instead), but the reality is: there is a limit to oil, we're reaching it sooner than later, and the planet can't sustain America's oil lifestyle let alone when we're competing for those same resources with China. Doomsday, my ass.
by CJnyc on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:46:11 AM PDT
We've known we were running out of oil for 40 years. Peak oil was this theology claiming that very soon oil would hit a (moving) goalpost beyond which it would become economically unviable and the economy would collapse.
by cdreid on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:09:38 PM PDT
were also wrong about the housing bubble.
So, I guess you are right on this one.
by Democrat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:19:01 AM PDT
and lumping those two together seems to be some kind of defensive (and ridiculous) reaction?
"Peak oil" is a ridiculous meme spread more here than anywhere else. That doesnt make its 'believers' lesser persons it just makes them wrong. Which we all are at times.
by cdreid on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:11:21 PM PDT
...but I wonder if the grounding of thousands of flights has more to do with tight jet fuel supplies than with faulty wiring, this suspicion grew stronger yesterday when an aircraft mechanic described the supposed problem to me as, "Bullshit."
So maybe we are seeing gas lines in a way.
message to the future
by CharlieHipHop on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:32:44 AM PDT
That is interesting.
That would make a great story in the Nation or Mother Jones or something.
Something tells me that we won't see it in WSJ or any of the other MSM.
by Democrat on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:20:20 AM PDT
Better start buying wheelbarrows to carry your money.
by Shiborg on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:56:39 PM PDT
amass enough $$$$$ that would take a wheelbarrow to carry it in.......unfortunately, in this economy, I think a legal size envelope would just about do it for us! ;O)
"What, Me Worry?"...King George Walker Alfred Eusless Newman Bush
by RantNRaven on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:14:20 PM PDT
. . . we have a bunch of old Weimar stamps that were never used.
I remember one was originally for 2 pfenig, but had been overprinted for something like 50 million marks. (Here's picture from wikipedia, of a stamp that's marked at 20 billion!)
I'm also reminded of a customer I had in Brazil in the 90s, when they were experiencing hyperinflation of 2% per day. He kept all his money in an overseas account, made daily deposits of business receipts and only withdrew money when it was absolutely necessary to pay bills - and even so, he was barely keeping his head above water. . .
What would Gandhi do? "The cause of liberty becomes a mockery if the price to be paid is the wholesale destruction of those who are to enjoy liberty."
by Robespierrette on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:56:09 PM PDT
Regardless of that, though, I think Victory Independence gardens are a good idea anyway. And the best place to start is where most people's idiotic front lawn is sitting right now.
I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds
by tle on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:04:33 PM PDT
It can be hard to convert an entire yard all at once, but a little piece at a time goes a long way.
Chamomile makes a great front yard!
The law is slacked and judgment doth never go forth: the wicked compass about the righteous and wrong judgment proceedeth - Habakkuk 1:4
by vox humana on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:08:44 PM PDT
instead of the front yard if we are to believe the coming food shortages will cause rioting as other diarists here are forecasting.
And cities should be planting fruit trees and other edibles for their landscaping instead of lawns and "decor" trees. Same amount of water and care required to grow food instead of ornamentals.
And the diarist didn't answer the questions posed above. If our dollar is going to be devalued as happened in other countries, where is the safest place to put any extra dollars we can hide away somewhere? In other foreign currency?
PLEASE answer this!
by ginja on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:29:58 PM PDT
economic questions! That is not my milieu.
I think I'll keep the chamomile in the front yard. I'd be happy to share. We'll all be healthier and sleep better at night.
As someone who has thought about "dollars" a lot lately, I am increasingly coming to the conclusion that the best place to put them is in building a strong community and relationships with neighbors.
We will need a lot more of each other in the coming years, and the lifestyle promoted in our country in the past half-century plus has caused all that community to deteriorate.
Don't hide it... share it!
by vox humana on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:36:54 PM PDT
years ago. Argentina, traditionally has a really low crime rate. People don't live so far apart from each other.
Looks like this is going to hurt. I mean if we can see it coming, and it looks this big while it's still way out to see, just think of the Tsunami we are going to get.
Could be trouble.
by The Wonder Moron on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:57:49 AM PDT
Absolutely, planting trees must be done.
The question is, how are you going to keep them in devastating circumstances?
by Creosote on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:01:13 AM PDT
One of the things that scares me most is the prospect of all the trees being burned for heat.
by CharlieHipHop on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:37:23 AM PDT
and no one seems to be thinking at all about this.
Or could there be a group? At the moment, I'm thinking about suburban trees, but the problem is huge.
And made worse by the detestable availability of chainsaws.
by Creosote on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:48:14 PM PDT
to do the same and begin planting their own gardens. Share your seeds and knowledge. Discuss plans for neighborhood watches and self-defense, with contingencies that do not rely on local police back-up.
The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. -FZ
by lightfoot on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 03:02:58 AM PDT
Especially purple basil. And if you like pesto sauce, it practically qualifies as a leafy vegetable.
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:48:07 PM PDT
I wish we had a yard so we could grow food for ourself. There is some urban gardening not too far away. Maybe it's time to do that.
by nrioq on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:51:15 PM PDT
And I am anxious to try the new tomato containers that are suspended in air.
If you have any sunny exposure, you can try to grow something! Basil is an excellent suggestion - thanks, MadScientist! Makes a good flavoring for vinegar, too.
by vox humana on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:32:53 PM PDT
We are growing basil and cilantro in our window sill at the moment. But I'm afraid our apartment isn't big enough to be serious about produce.
by nrioq on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:51:28 PM PDT
the power of "something" over "nothing!"
Even if it is cilantro.
;8) ~
Sincerest best wishes,
by vox humana on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:02:04 PM PDT
Even on a shady balcony, you can grow a tub full of squash. You have to keep it watered though. A sunny balcony can have tubs of all sorts of things. You can even get a small trellis and plant climbing beans up the wall.
by northsylvania on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:29:19 AM PDT
We're growing oyster mushrooms in buckets on the back step.
Strawberries, catnip and melissa grow beautifully in hanging pots.
Make your own yogurt from powdered skim milk.
There's always a way.
Follow the money. It's getting away.
by bablhous on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:42:27 AM PDT
Our dependence on produce from abroad (and across the country) is idiotic, given the available lawn space to grow vegetables for at least 1/4 the year in Northern climates, and more elsewhere. It's time we take some responsibility - that includes real investments in alternative fuels and public transportation, and a focus on domestic production. I don't say that to be an isolationist, far from it, but rather to remember our roots (both literally and figuratively).
by jrchicago on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:13:03 PM PDT
nearly as much as other countries depend on grain from the U.S. Which is why ethanol from corn is such a disastrous idea. Not only is it not energy efficient, but it raises grain prices everywhere, as valuable midwestern farm acreage is put into corn to feed vehicles. This is not exactly genocide, but it insures that many people will not be able to afford food.
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:51:14 PM PDT
to cut trees and to act immediately to enforce them.
It may at least slow the decimation -
Losing still more trees - whether from your own yard, your block, your park, your city, your farm, your national forest - can only savagely accelerate global warming.
by Creosote on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:58:53 AM PDT
The scream of chainsaws in my neighborhood is far too common. It's horrible. What makes it worse is that the city people, the ones who should care about trees, are some of the ones gleefully killing them, then planting some damned weed like crepe myrtle in the place of an old oak.
Don't even get me started. I have been met with a mountain of apathy on this, and I want to do quite a bit of screaming myself.
by tle on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:32:21 PM PDT
I might start a diary about my Greenspan Garden.
The definition of insanity is voting the same way and expecting a different result. I'm talking to you FL,OH, KY, WV!
by Shhs on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:48:27 AM PDT
by naming it your "Greenspan Garden". :-)
by tle on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:33:29 PM PDT
The gardens of my friends put mine to shame. People grew hops and made beer, pick elderflowers and made wine, went hunting for meat if neccessary, and learned best practices on storage. We traded for cheese and milk. This was a rural area though. We had friends in cities and they weren't at the end of their tether either, though gardening wasn't a lifestyle choice for them. It was hard and more people tended to live together, but it wasn't Armageddon either.
by northsylvania on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:23:51 AM PDT
Deflation with a major drop in PRICE.
There is a TON of MONEY to be made here as well,
IF, IF, IF,IF
R.E. turns around with 30% lower prices
and with 30% lower rates
and all of the new strong refi. comes in...
and new buys look for a bottom...
It turns around on a dime....
This is about building this nation up
Not tearing it down.
A Strong Dollar and A Stronger Fed Are as American as America GETS
by 1Eco on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:50:26 AM PDT
you always feel like you should stock up on food, clean water, firearms and ammunition, and perhaps move to safe commune somewhere in Alberta.
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:40:29 PM PDT
I started on the rest after reading my first gjohnsit, then bonddad, Jerome, etc. I rarely comment because most of it is over my head and I just try to glean something from the graphs and comments.
I just want some idea of what I can do to get me and my SO (elderly, somewhat feeble) through this mess.
by Scubaval on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:12:16 PM PDT
Some folks prefer a map and finding their own route. Others need someone to tell them where to go.
by sxwarren on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:14:06 AM PDT
We already know everything is being done wrong...all this does is make me worry more.
All this and the wingnuts will never read this and if they do they won't care.
Assassin: Its worse than you know. Malcolm: It usually is. 宁静
by TalkieToaster on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:42:12 PM PDT
"One cannot be pessimistic about the West. This is the native land of hope." Wallace Stegner
by Mother Mags on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:49:03 PM PDT
I can't think of a more dangerous development. The legislative branch's neutering is almost complete.
Keep in mind, the legislative branch, especially Congress, is the people's branch. They're neutering you.
by TocqueDeville on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:01:23 PM PDT
Why does this seem to be a part of the bigger picture of forcing us to have ownership in empire building corporate hegemony? They have to know that every Constitutional question will will be decided in their favor by the pro-corporate SCOTUS.
And, by forcing the American public into ownership of their mess, public support will be on the side of their success.
Or, maybe I'm also paranoid, but of a slightly different flavor.
"I was so easy to defeat, I was so easy to control, I didn't even know there was a war." -9.75, -8.41
by RonV on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:17:15 PM PDT
Check out this diary I made the other day.
Great minds think alike.
by gjohnsit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:47:40 PM PDT
If you have some time watch Paul Volker's speech to the Economic Club of New York the other day.
It was scathing, in central banker terms, and very very scary if you read between the lines.
Volker is quite a man. He has been warning for a long time about the mess we are seeing the beginnings of.
Two points form the questions afterwards:
Link to part 1, I think there are 5 parts in total. It is a bit long, but well worth watching. Listen carefully because Volker is very discreet in calling people morons.
by taonow on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:13:57 PM PDT
Thanks for reminding me. I'll it to my diary right now.
by gjohnsit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:24:36 PM PDT
F them and Bernake, F this president, and the last one.
Oh and a big thanks to the "Greatest Generation" and the early "Boomers" for leaving my generation less than what they received.
Thanks so much!
by Shhs on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:27:55 PM PDT
"As an ex-banker and one who has scuttled quite largely about this country of ours, I give you my solemn word of honour that I have never seen any other class more corrupt, conscienceless, and thieving than bankers." - Jack Woodford
"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)
"The Federal Reserve Bank is nothing but a banking fraud and an unlawful crime against civilization. Why? Because they "create" the money made out of nothing, and our Uncle Sap Government issues their "Federal Reserve Notes" and stamps our Government approval with NO obligation whatever from these Federal Reserve Banks, Individual Banks or National Banks, etc." - H.L. Birum, Sr., American Mercury, August 1957, p. 43
"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States." -- Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR)
"The fact is that there is a serious danger of this country becoming a Pluto-democracy; that is, a sham republic with the real government in the hands of a small clique of enormously wealthy men, who speak through their money, and whose influence, even today, radiates to every corner of the United States." - William McAdoo - President Wilson's national campaign vice-chairman, wrote in Crowded Years
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the Government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson
"Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation...but can't, [won't] support the drastic reforms to stop it [repeal of the Federal Reserve Act] because it could cost him his job." -- Robert A. Heinlein, Expanded Universe
"In a small Swiss city sits an international organization so obscure and secretive....Control of the institution, the Bank for International Settlements, lies with some of the world's most powerful and least visible men: the heads of 32 central banks, officials able to shift billions of dollars and alter the course of economies at the stroke of a pen." - Keith Bradsher of the New York Times, August 5, 1995
by 4km on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:21:13 PM PDT
Now I am not into everything he said but getting rid of the fed is a good idea.. let the government run our money not the bankeers.. that way we do not have intrest as bieng the funds paying the bank.. i.e generating rev for the bank and milking us citizens of our livly hood..
by hangingchad on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:59:34 PM PDT
But even a clock is right twice a day.
by TocqueDeville on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:55:40 PM PDT
Love that guy, every book, even his letters from the grave.
by bemclau on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:37:14 PM PDT
He's just factually wrong in that quote. From 1871 to 1913 (post civil war and pre world war 1 and the creation of the Federal Reserve) inflation was higher and economic growth was lower than in the almost 100 years since then.
There were also 11 recessions including 2 mini depressions over that 1871-1913 time period, some of them caused by a lack of gold to support the gold standard (which is why William Jennings Bryan supported the so called silver standard). This is an average of one recession every 4 years.
Since the Federal Reserve's adoption of monetarist theory in regards to focus on controlling inflation rather than promoting economic growth in the early 1980s under Paul Volcker and Ronald Reagan there has been 3 recessions following the big recession in 1982 (1990, 2000 and now), an average of one recession every 8 years.
I think this desire to get rid of the Federal Reserve is boosted in some people's minds by a 'grass is greener on the other side' view. I.E, we know there has been 3 recessions in the last 25 or so years with the Federal Reserve and we can fantasize that there wouldn't have been any without it. However, the historical record certainly indicates otherwise.
by Adam T on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 01:36:33 AM PDT
My point is not that a central bank is per se a bad thing, but that having it in private hands, and permitting a group of private interests to issue money made by it ex nihilo and to lend it to the taxpayers at interest, is regressive, puts too much power in too few hands (and private, self-interested ones at that) and essentially pays a wealthy elite for nothing.
Let the monetary policy be made by well-salaried technocrats, but the question is not whether the Fed gives us the worst of all worlds -- historically, it has a mixed record -- but whether we can do better.
by Kargomania on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 06:57:04 AM PDT
I addressed this in another post here. It's a myth that the Fed is private, it is quasi private at best. In reality, the 'privacy' of the Fed is nothign but an accounting entry.
When the Federal Reserve was set up in 1913 it obviously needed to be capitalized. Congress decided that the private banks should finance it, so they had them 'buy' it.
However, the real determination of ownership is control, and that is clearly the government: 1.The mandate of the Federal Reserve is solely written by Congress. They decide what the job of the Federal Reserve is.
2.The Federal Reserve makes a profit from lending money to the private banks, as well as from the interest paid on the treasury bonds that the Reserve holds. All of that profit is turned over to the Treasury Department, not to the 'private bank owners'. That more than anything should tell you who really owns the Federal Reserve.
by Adam T on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 04:53:45 PM PDT
Maybe I am a bad poster for complementing the use of Robert Heinlein...in well, anything, while not having a full grasp on post civil war/pre WWI monetary policy and the preceding 100 years of economic growth.
I like his science fiction novels. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" touches on the principles of freedom and self-reliance, yet he also rails against organized religion and was a secret socialist.
Do you grok?
by bemclau on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 05:39:03 PM PDT
I've actually never heard of Robert Heinlein before. It's just as an economics student I get a little worked up over the conspiracy theories and fallacies that are so often stated by 'non economists'.
by Adam T on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 09:50:34 PM PDT
I admire you passion and enthusiasm.
I do recommend any Heinlein novel.
by bemclau on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 07:58:43 AM PDT
the legislative branch never had law enforcement authority, that always having been the provence of the executive ("executing" the laws that the legislative passes).
You could say that, through signing statements, that Congress has ceded much of its lawmaking authority. Moreover, by allowing multiple abrogations of the constitution by the executive to stand, you can say Congress has ceded the Constitution itself (which makes the issue at hand unlikely to be challenged by them).
Thanks for putting this out there. Time to batten down the hatches, it seems.
"Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you can succeed." -Nancy Pelosi, 6/29/07.
by nailbender on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:55:26 PM PDT
But I don't think that executing the laws was ever specified in the Constitution. I remember from my Constitutional Law class that the size and scope of the executive branch was never intended by the founding fathers.
by gjohnsit on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:35:58 PM PDT
Those other currency crises you mentioned--Argentina, Mexico, Russia, Southeast Asia--were ameliorated in part by actions of the world's central bankers, the Fed in particular.
And those other currencies were not the world's principle reserve currencies.
Who will step in to help us out? Who could, even if they were so inclined?
by MadScientist on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:38:08 PM PDT
we'll see a new currency in America in our lifetimes. Proabably in the next 10-15 years.
"I'm a war President" - GWB
by Deadicated Marxist on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 07:29:04 AM PDT
Sunspot cycle?
No, I guess we have to settle on capitalism hoisted on its own petard.
130 years ago Corporations spent fortunes on ad campaigns to convince the American people (who widely knew that giving control to monied interests was suicidal), that Corporations were our friend, and the route to the good life.
So since at least the Fed came into being nearly 100 years ago, and the Income Tax as surety for the Fed as well, everybody's been playing money games.
The only rational alternative to a conspiracy theory is a bury-your-head-in-the-sand theory.
Things need changing at their root.
Until we break the corporate virtual monopoly on what we hear and see, we keep losing, don't matter what we do.
by Jim P on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 09:38:19 PM PDT
But how is this unconstitutional. All of this presupposes the Congress and President approving the change. Also, the Fed, is a private entity, so how could it violate the constitution?
Basically all of this amounts to a desperate gambit to keep the credit markets from seizing up. What we've been seeing is a fluctuation over the last few months where credit markets appear to be ready to lock up and the Fed finds a way to inject enough liquidity to keep things rolling. They are trying to avoid a situation where the credit markets seize up and they have no means to add more liquidity.
Frankly, they have every reason to be looking at extreme measures because if the credit markets seize up, we will be up shit creek. Companies that need short term financing as a part of their operational model will be unable to get it. They will default, that will cause others to default. Panic will ensue as investors make margin calls to get their money out as soon as possible to avoid getting it locked up in the system.
--- Photography, Politics, and Chicago
by sterno on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:42:27 PM PDT
I have it from sources close to events that the ECB balance sheet is just as bad, if not worse.
Also, a better way to fix the problem would be for the US Treasury to issue Treasuries and swap them for the collateral cluttering up the Fed's balance sheet. This would be justified on the basis that the bailouts and TAF lending are essentially political acts in the interest of financial stability and should be regarded as quite separate from the Fed's monetary policy mission.
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?" - Abraham Lincoln
by LondonYank on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 12:07:26 AM PDT