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...'Tibetan government in exile' has received funding or other assistance from the Kuomintang over the years as well.
I'm searching the web now for any connections between the two. Anyone have any info on the subject?
Thanks.
by Rex Manning on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:05:23 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
keep us posted.
It was not an accident that this "uprising" was instigated just prior to the election in Taiwan.
John McCain: A Punk and A Mean Little F*cker
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:07:22 PM PDT
I found this:
China Daily After a series of tests and ceremonies, the 14th Dalai Lama was chosen and welcomed to Lhasa in 1939. The 14th Dalai Lama ascended the throne under the permission of the Kuomintang Government in 1949.
China Daily
After a series of tests and ceremonies, the 14th Dalai Lama was chosen and welcomed to Lhasa in 1939.
The 14th Dalai Lama ascended the throne under the permission of the Kuomintang Government in 1949.
I don't consider the source (China Daily) to be reliable though.
There's this, a reprint of a "UK Guardian" article but not much solid about connections between the Kuomintang and the Dali Lama.
I did a search to find any contacts between the Dali Lama and the WACL but that returned only one, cryptic, result.
by Rex Manning on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:29:42 PM PDT
at the time they approved of the ascension of the Dalai Lama in 1949. They were extremely weak and fighting the Communists at the time.
It just goes to the fact that the Chinese with very few exceptions consider Tibet to be part of China, and have so for centuries, irrespective of who is in power.
Living Overseas? Get your absentee ballot: http://www.votefromabroad.org
by beijingbetty on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 08:54:47 PM PDT
that conclude that Tibet would have ceased to exist ages ago without protection and assistance for Chinese Emperors. The land cannot support the population.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:01:15 PM PDT
i'm curious. one can argue that it would have ceased to exist without trade, but it's not like the manchu emperors of the qing dynasty (no ethnic chinese emperors ever had much to do with tibetans) spent much time sending food up there.
until very recently, it's been largely self-supporting WRT food (ie. lots and lots of tsampa and yak-related foodstuffs, not much else), although they packed in tea and coral in exchange for precious metals, turquoise and salt for ages, both with china and india.
surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat
by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:50:14 PM PDT
I now have so many bookmarks, I can't find it. I do have this from perhaps the first historian from the West.
As regards Tebet, however, you should understand that it is subject to the Great Kaan. So, likewise, all the other kingdoms, regions, and provinces which are described in this book are subject to the Great Kaan, nay, even those other kingdoms, regions, and provinces of which I had occasion to speak at the beginning of the book as belonging to the son of Argon, the Lord of the Levant, are also subject to the Emperor; for the former holds his dominion of the Kaan, and is his liegeman and kinsman of the blood Imperial. So you must know that from this province forward all the provinces mentioned in our book are subject to the Great Kaan; and even if this be not specially mentioned, you must understand that it is so. Marco Polo
As regards Tebet, however, you should understand that it is subject to the Great Kaan. So, likewise, all the other kingdoms, regions, and provinces which are described in this book are subject to the Great Kaan, nay, even those other kingdoms, regions, and provinces of which I had occasion to speak at the beginning of the book as belonging to the son of Argon, the Lord of the Levant, are also subject to the Emperor; for the former holds his dominion of the Kaan, and is his liegeman and kinsman of the blood Imperial. So you must know that from this province forward all the provinces mentioned in our book are subject to the Great Kaan; and even if this be not specially mentioned, you must understand that it is so.
Marco Polo
It is well known that Khan did not force the Mongol civilization on the Chinese, but instead he himself became Sino-fied to the point where he fell into disfavor with his own people. This has also been said about the Manchu Emperors.
This exemplifies why nearly all of the 56 ethnic groups refer to themselves as "Chinese". It's more about the Motherland and the culture than who is what.
I'll find the other links when I can. sorry One indication would be population statistics that show zero population growth for the period from the Qin Dynasty until 1950.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:07:34 PM PDT
for decades now in the field of chinese history. the mongols didn't make the chinese into mongols (as central asian nomads, it wouldn't have made any sense for them to do so; tribal alliances were fluid by definition) but they did transform the chinese state and culture in many significant ways that present-day chinese would assume was always traditionally chinese.
the manchus were more aggressive about transforming the chinese, and played quite skillfully with distinguishing between two words that in english get conflated into the category of "china" - zhongguo (the political/historical china) and han (ethnic chinese). while the manchus were very intent on claiming dominion over zhongguo (and, for that matter, tianxia (the cosmological china)), they were adamant that they were not han, and were in fact superior to them on confucian moral as well as nomadic martial grounds.
of course, it is precisely the complex ethnic empire that the manchus built, that included tibet but not under han chinese administration, that is the source of the current mess. when the chinese overthrew the qing in 1911 and instituted a republic based upon the ethnic domination of han chinese, those non-han peripheral territories saw their own ties to beijing as severed as well, since their loyalty was to the manchu emperors, not one of their subject peoples. additionally, the chinese trying to force direct rule in an area that had been more or less completely autonomous even under manchu and mongol overlordship made the current crisis unavoidable. had they backed off and left it alone in exchange for changing the nominal national boundary, they probably would have been able to hold onto it without periodic bloodshed and outrage.
things don't transition well between premodern empires and modern nationalist states.
by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:22:37 PM PDT
and I bow to your superior knowledge as I am a recent student of Chinese History....
The Qing dynasty was characterized by a system of dual appointments by which each position in the central government had a Manchu and a Han assigned to it.
When the Qing Emperor abdicated, the remaining Han then assumed the government and claimed that all territories controlled by the Qing now came under their control.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:36:36 PM PDT
If you visit Beijing Forbidden City and others, you will find many dual language signs in Manchu/Chinese and in older sites, many Molgolian texts.
Of course, present day Chinese currancy is multilingual on the back side (top right), and currancy before the 7th issue (Mao) depicted the major ethnic groups.
Examples:
And don't forget my childhood favorite! You can see the multilingual top left, in the cloud of exhuast from the tractor.
When harmonious relationships dissolve, respect and devotion arise; when a nation falls to chaos, loyalty and patriotism are born - Daodejing (paraphrased)
by koNko on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:05:47 AM PDT
we call it "small money". I prefer the larger, red 100 Renmibi bills with Chairman Mao. Unfortunately I'm unable to collect many of these.
by Zwoof on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:12:22 AM PDT
They have HK$ 1,000 notes. The design is quite attractive.
Regrettably, they are only worth RMB901 due to exchange rates, so if you find any floating around I'm willing to take them off your hands.
by koNko on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:20:01 AM PDT
and the money. do they still have the old aluminum 1 fen coin?
by wu ming on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:18:55 AM PDT
and it is still the world record holder for 'minted coin with least value' in the world, i believe. something to that effect.
by beijingbetty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:44:16 AM PDT
We still have 1, 2, 5 Fen,but every issue they get smaller and thinner, so if you have any old ones, you are sitting on a fortune.
They are very useful for negotiating a small discount in the vegetable market, to preserve history and to fill Hongbao of people you don't like (SNARC).
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:33:46 AM PDT
Thanks for your complement, however, this translation by me is intended to be interpretive and is not at all historically faitful, so it's questionable.
Actually, I first wrote it in response to another comment about duty verses loyalty and my interpretation was influanced by that. Daodejing can often be applied in both the negative/positive contexts and it can be quite difficult to translate in an open way. I've found some people studying English text often quite far from the Chinese in meaning, and then there are also some differences in the 3 Chinese versions based on validated historical artifacts.
Anyway, I was making an argument so I simply tried to apply it in context of the current political situation and avoid the use of Chinese metaphors or idiomatic expressions that would be unfamilliar to Americans, and I admit there is a negative bias in the last line that's subject to use; "loyal ministers" depends on loaylty to reality, cause or person, no? And it could be negative/positive depending circumstances as well. Obviously I was thinking of the present administation/situation.
The original source text is the second verse of Book 1, Chapter 18, the chapter in entirety:
大道廢有仁義 慧智出有大偽 六親不和有孝慈 國家昏亂有忠臣。
The concept about my first line is harmony playing against traditional notions of filial piety including the respect and devotion required.
My second is the appearance of "loalalty" in times of chaos, sometimes a bad thing.
Joan D'Arc verses George Bush?
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:15:39 PM PDT
I was thinking something but forgot to write it.
Regarding first line, a good reference for my negative context is Xiaojing Chapter 5, "Filial Piety in Inferior Officers", it's quite a suitable text.
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 09:27:40 PM PDT
ie. the old ming domains, but many of the areas outside of that were not run under that same system, tibet and xinjiang prominent among them. after 1911, it was the military who effectively took over most places (esp. the new modern armies of the post-taiping era), not so much the old qing civil officials. by 1911, the imperial system was pretty much breaking down anyways, and local/provincial elites were often borderline autonomous even within china proper by the time the court officially fell. and then there was the great game in central asia, with russians, brits and eventually japanese all running around propping various warlords and leaders up.
when the 14th dalai lama traveled as a child to lhasa from his birthplace in amdo, it was not chinese officials of the ROC that stopped him and demanded ransom, but rather a series of local muslim warlords. the chinese government's grasp didn't even really cover all of china proper, much less places way out there like tibet.
tibet had to be invaded in 1959.
by wu ming on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 01:17:59 AM PDT
I would just remind everyone that Dr. Sun, when founding the Nationalist Government from which the KMT decended, established the doctrine of "5 Peoples" including Tibetians as part of the historical Chinese nation, and the CCP also addopted the doctrine as fundamental to the concept of the chinese nation, we refer to as:
(中华民族) [Zhonghua minzu].
If you search that term in Goggle or Baidu I'm sure you'll find a wealth of information.
In fact, China is traditionally a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural society with a feudalistic history where borders frequently shifted and various regions (including Tibet and most of Western China)include nomadic groups and a great diversity of ethnic populations from various regions. Today, China has 56 officially recognised ethnic groups, and numerous other ethno-liguistic groups.
Think "Silk Road", that's it in a nutshell.
BTW, don't forget the Qing Dynasty (last) was Manchu Chinese not Han, and various others, notably the Mongolian Dynasties established by Genghis Khan which were very influential in enlarging the ethnic and territorial base of China.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:47:16 PM PDT
I posted this before reading comments by Zwoof & Wu Ming, never mind ... pleast don't TR me for spamming.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:50:38 PM PDT
I was just typing a comment to you to look for that subthread.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:53:20 PM PDT
the guomindang didn't have any ability to say boo about tibetan affairs. they were losing china proper and hauling suitcases of gold bullion onto ships to taiwan.
by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:47:26 PM PDT
...between the KMT and the Dali Lama.
Good to know.
I like your evidence.
by Rex Manning on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:34:03 PM PDT
what I mean is I doubt there is a oresent day or recent connection, but please read my up-thread that explains "5 Peoples"and this should help you to find some relvant historical information.
Try Google 中华民族 [Zhonghua minzu] and you should find a lot.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:53:02 PM PDT
from Nanjing and Tibet. I think Tibet was not an important matter at this time in history because of its remoteness.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:56:24 PM PDT
... things the KMT and the Beijing government had agreed on over the years. The KMT never wanted to break up China, it just maintained that it, the KMT, was the legitimate government of all China, rather than the Communist government.
The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.
by lotlizard on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:42:36 PM PDT
i bought a map of china in taiwan once that not only included tibet and taiwan, but also outer mongolia, the spratleys/paracels, central asia all the way out to lake balkhash in kazakhstan, and a fair amount of northern laos and burma to boot.
but then when you have none of it, i guess it doesn't take any more effort to claim everything the qing once had.
by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:53:31 PM PDT
They stick around and linger on, even if no one is in a position to actively enforce them.
One of his first official acts when King Juan Carlos ascended to the post-Franco throne in Spain was to make a state visit to the Netherlands and in the name of the Bourbons, finally after 3 centuries formally renounce his family's claim to the Netherlands. Up until that time no Spanish monarch had ever officially recognized the independence the Dutch provinces had won in their 80-year (!) struggle against Spanish rule.
by lotlizard on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:05:03 PM PDT
Old KMT and CCP guys can argue for days agreeing on everything but who's boss. The older and thinner, the more tough they are.
Like this "Fisherman".
by koNko on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 12:10:00 AM PDT
I bet 10 RMB that Lao Jiang's pants are hiked to his armpits under that Mao jacket.
by beijingbetty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:48:13 AM PDT
You are very funny. I think he used some pink plastic bags to tie them up around his neck.
But the basket look strangly new, maybe a gift from a visiting dignitary. Typical Shanghainese.
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 04:42:48 AM PDT
The Communist Party was part of the KMT but felt the KMT was for more of the same control by aristocrats and wealthy landowners.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:16:54 PM PDT
And not much else. It's a rich and interesting relationship. But you're correct, the KMT lost hearts & minds due to corruption, and the CCP won territory with a peasant army.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:09:17 PM PDT
repeat
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:10:59 PM PDT
Only one Chinese government, for example.
Any disagreements between the KMT and CCP can be settled with traditional Chinese weapons:
Stronger armor piercing ability than depleted uranium and longer lasting than nuclear fallout.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:03:19 PM PDT
those are stones. Einstein...
"I don't know what will be used in the next world war, but the 4th will be fought with stones."
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:09:02 PM PDT
it might be said WW3 could be started with stones
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:13:51 PM PDT
Einstein is so quotable and usually right.
Let's hope for Cho Dofu, then beijingbetty & koNko win, everyone else in a 50m radius looses.
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:38:58 AM PDT
Cho Dofu! They do have the apperance of bloody stones ... scarey. But not as scarey as smelly.
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:35:58 AM PDT
if that is what i think it is... i can smell it from here! (yum!)
by beijingbetty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:49:49 AM PDT
Secret Chinese weapon.
I love it too, but forbidden to cook it at home.
by koNko on Thu Apr 17, 2008 at 02:40:25 AM PDT
the guomindang gave up on the whole trying to overthrow china thing in the late 80s/early 90s. that's when the golden triangle former GMD warlords stopped bothering to even make trouble for china (there's a cool chinese graveyard related to them in chiang khong, thailand, if anyone's ever in far norther thailand) and just focused on growing and dealing opium.
right now, the GMD is bosom buddies with the chinese government. the AEI anticommunist wingnuts like to back the ethnic taiwanese DPP (ironically, in that the DPP is a classic farmer-labor democracy movement party, at least in its roots, but again these neocons are all about enemies of enemies).
taiwan has a department of tibetan and mongolian affairs, but as far as i know it's pretty vestigal these day.
by wu ming on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 09:46:18 PM PDT
GMD = KMT. The difference is just in how it is romanized into English, but by reference the same group.
by beijingbetty on Wed Apr 16, 2008 at 02:51:20 AM PDT
Traditionally, the KMT tended to focus more on maintaining a tight grip on Taiwan and maintaining it's relationship with the US to keep the wedge in place.
More recently (since loosing the presidency) the KMT has flipped the table to addopt the role of peacemaker with the PRC, using the opportunity to rebuild it's base and retool it's platform.
I'm not saying it's impossible,just unlikely.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:16:31 PM PDT
the meeting between Hu and the Taiwan VP elect just happened a few miles from my house. I feel so historical.
by Zwoof on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 10:19:14 PM PDT
I suppose your wife convinced you of that.
Mei-ling and Ching-ling both have historical residences not too far from where I live (Xuhui) but I claim not to be very knowlegable about stuff that old.
by koNko on Tue Apr 15, 2008 at 11:14:39 PM PDT
wide narrow
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