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by Angry Mouse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:02:21 PM PDT
is deplorable evidence that even here, a lot of people Just Don't Get It. Universal bearing of arms DOES NOT increase the security of any state or polity that YOU live in. The amendment reads, "a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right", etc. There are two premises in this that have simply been overtaken by events (i.e., they are FALSE NOW, even though they MIGHT have been true at the time of ratification), and a third that was completely hypocritical to begin with. In the first place, if the militia means all the able-bodied men CAPABLE of bearing arms, then THAT being "well-regulated" in so bearing simply IS NOT necessary (or even helpful) to the security of this or that allegedly "free" state. No state in THESE United States FACES the kind of threat that generally arming the populace MIGHT help to combat. The second false premise is that arming everybody WOULD HELP the militia to be more regulated -- THE EXACT OPPOSITE is true -- the more universally-armed everybody is, the more TROUBLE the REGULATORS are going to have regulating them. Which is, of course, EXACTLY HOW GUN NUTS WANT it, but is THE OPPOSITE of what the amendment (obsoletely) presumes.
The third false premise -- and, unlike the others, this one was false FROM THE BEGINNING -- it was just pure hypocrisy -- is that the states that the amendment was designed to protect were "free": IN POINT OF ACTUAL FACT, THE WHOLE INITIAL PURPOSE of the 2nd amendment was to ENSURE THAT WHITE MEN WOULD BE WELL-ENOUGH ARMED IN LARGE ENOUGH NUMBERS to put down slave rebellions in these states -- THAT was the security (of a FREE state - HAH!) that was being talked about.
This amendment is obsolete, period. The best way to prove that is to start taking it seriously. The verb in the amendment is "infringe". To "infringe" something means to just take a LITTLE bit off around the edges. The plain language and meaning of the thing is that EVERY LITTLE bit of gun regulation, even if it's just around the FRINGE, is unconstitutional. Unfortunately, our Supreme Court has always specialized in eviscerating the important parts of the document. If they would just read what it says then ALL the gun-control laws would fall EXCEPT the ones that the state could show were contributing to better-regulating the militia -- and even THAT would be a stretch, grammatically -- the amendment does not say "shall not be infringed except where such infringement would improve regulation of the militia" -- it says "shall not be infringed." PERIOD . IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS, NOT what Antonin Scalia says it says. If the Supreme Court were to start ruling accordingly and striking down gun laws, then the sheer carnage that would ensue would get us the mandate we need to amend the constitution to address this issue rationally. As it stands, we have a constitution that says you CAN'T regulate guns, and a Supreme Court that says you can, and nobody has ANY legal or moral high ground around the issue.
"You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards
by ge0rge on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:20:19 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
First of all, the Supreme Court has ruled that everywhere the Constitution says, "The People" it is talking about all the people, no exceptions. The 2nd Amendment guarantees the right of "The People" to keep and bear arms. That means all of us; you, me, Dick Cheney, everyone.
Your claim about the 2nd Amendment being about putting down slave rebellions does not fit the historical facts. Massachusetts — which never allowed slavery — introduced the 2nd Amendment. Why did they do that?
One of the ways the British Empire oppressed its subjects was a monopoly on violence. Soldiers, being agents of the King, could bear arms; citizens could not. The Founders realized that a country needed soldiers to defend itself — especially the US of A, which was under attack from Britain until 1812.
In order to prevent the US from forming a Samurai class, they made it a Constitutional provision that all citizens were allowed to keep and bear arms. Therefore, the soldiers could keep and bear arms not because they were soldiers, but because they were citizens.
If you look at the Third Amendment in this context, you can see why they enumerated that right as well.
The Second Amendment says that the army is a civilian organization, answerable to the people and comprised of the people. Do you have a problem with that?
by The Red Pen on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:38:52 PM PDT
by The People.Without weapons to fight with you bow your knee to whoever rules so If you want a nation that bow's on knees to "whoever" rules then take the 2nd Amendment away.
by defluxion10 on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:39:50 PM PDT
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - Orwell
by MAORCA on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 04:44:03 PM PDT
COST THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ENOUGH ELECTIONS?
Now you're trying to sink Obama as well.
Go join Nader's presidential campaign.
If he'll have you.
Looking for intelligent energy policy alternatives? Try here.
by alizard on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:34:21 PM PDT
support for him. He has publically affirmed that he considers it an individual right, not a collective right.
That's all we really want to hear. After that, we're good.
And armed.
by SicPlurisPoenaPrestantia on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:37:06 PM PDT
If I were to post the equivalent of what you just said about any other group -- say, "affirmative action nuts" -- I would undoubtedly be troll-rated right off the page.
It is not the "gun control crazies" who support the Second Amendment who are costing Democrats elections.
It is the ignorant, self-righteous "gun control crazies" who oppose the Second Amendment who are costing Democrats elections.
Get your facts straight.
by Angry Mouse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:40:30 PM PDT
That was intended as an attack on PRO gun-control "Democrats".
I'm fully on board with supporting the 2nd Amendment.
by alizard on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:36:26 PM PDT
I guess it's just my knee jerk reaction -- I see the words "gun" and "crazies" and I assume it's yet another SOB ranting about "gun nuts."
(And seriously, do these people not understand how offensive that term is?)
My bad.
by Angry Mouse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 06:51:15 PM PDT
back on the heads of the "BAN TEH EVILL!!!! GUNS!!!!!" fanatics who are indeed willing to let McCain become President as long as Democrats' "purity of essence" is intact.
Anyone who thinks this more important than turning DC blue deserves to be called a crazy. Particularly considering how big the overlap is between this community and the raving maniacs for Hillary and of course, the Democratic Leadership Council.
by alizard on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 10:35:37 PM PDT
I can't begin to ennumerate them.
This is the Founders' guarantee that future generations would have the ability to make any potential governmental tyranny think twice about imposing dictatorship. Period. Angry Mouse is absolutely correct, and any lessor reading of the 2nd is an acquiescence to either bitter cynicism or boneheaded idealism.
If a people cannot, even symbolically, protect themselves from the tyranny of the state, then the vote which you prize so highly is yours by fiat, not by right.
Don't be a fool.
by SicPlurisPoenaPrestantia on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:35:17 PM PDT
Are there any others? Your argument (I think) is that we have so many laws on the books that are totally inconsistent and contrary that the Second Amendment is pointless.
How about the First Amendment? I mean, consider how many laws we have restricting the First Amendment. Copyright laws alone. So, does that make the First Amendment obsolete?
Oh, and P.S. "Gun nuts" is a bigoted, prejudiced, offensive term. Liberals -- the same people who pride themselves on their tolerance and political correctiness -- should really stop using that term. It makes them look like hypocrites.
by Angry Mouse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:37:47 PM PDT
First of all, it's absolute nonsense to suggest that the 2nd Amendment came about from the desire to put down slave rebellions. I've never seen any evidence to support that assertion, and I doubt that any exists. If anything, the founders were motivated first and foremost by a desire to check the power of the government.
Secondly, the "well-regulated militia" part of the 2nd Amendment is a preamble, not a qualifier. The people who interpret that section of the amendment as a qualifier are using the same stilted logic that right-wingers use to parse away other freedoms, like those enshrined in the 1st Amendment ("freedom of speech, not expression" and "freedom of religion, not from religion" are examples of this logic).
And many gun rights proponents, like myself, believe that the individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right that stems from the right to self-defense, and would stand up for that right regardless of what the Constitution or any other law says. Just like we would for a woman's right to choose, or the broader right to privacy.
-7.12, -7.54 / The Old Eighteen
by Big Tex on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:44:46 PM PDT
that the concept of "gun control" evolved out of the desire to keep guns out of the hands of free blacks after the Civil War. So that they could not protect themselves against -- yup -- the tyrany of the government.
Oh, how far we've come...
by Angry Mouse on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 05:50:51 PM PDT
First of all, it's absolute nonsense to suggest that the 2nd Amendment came about from the desire to put down slave rebellions. I've never seen any evidence to support that assertion, and I doubt that any exists.
Just because you've never seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Who the heck are you?? Besides ignorant, I mean, since personal ignorance is what you're flaunting here. THIS IS THE INTERNET! IT'S OUT THERE!. DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK! I will give you ONE reference in advance. READ THIS. It doesn't even matter whether you agree with it or not. The point is, JUST BY EXISTING, it hereafter disentitles you to doubt that the evidence exists. Just by existing, it makes you look stupid for having laughed off the possiblity.
Of course, this is just one law journal article (albeit with quotes FROM THE FRAMERS AND FOUNDERS THEMSELVES -- so whose word are we supposed to take for it? The people WHO ACTUALLY WROTE AND RATIFIED the amendment or YOUR IGNORANT OPINION on the basis of what you were TOO LAZY TO HAVE BOTHERED seeing??). You will find it drowned by a plethora of others on "the racist roots of gun control" where modern right-wing gun nuts (racists all) attempt to defuse objections to their racism by alleging that gun control was to keep guns out of the hands of black people so that white ones could shoot them more easily. That may have been true for about 50 years following the Civil War but it was not true when the amendment was ratified and it is certainly not true today, where the case that has the issue before the Supreme Court again is motivated by black people killing each other with guns -- mostly around transactions having nothing whatsoever to do with the state since they are illegal to begin with.
by ge0rge on Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 09:55:47 PM PDT
You found it!
Except that this article was written by Carl Bogus, an aptly named and known partisan on this issue. Bogus et al. made many of these same assertions in their Heller Amicus brief.
Here's an article that points out some of the factual (yes FACTUAL) issues associated with Bogus' positions on the issue:
http://hnn.us/...
by gtl on Tue Apr 22, 2008 at 01:33:45 PM PDT
by jlseagull42 on Wed Apr 23, 2008 at 11:08:32 AM PDT
wide narrow
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