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and you'll see hundreds of pro-China posts. Some equate American (white, in particular) disagreement with China's government with racism.
DevilsTower is absolutely correct. I personally feel the Olympics have been corrupt since they were revivied in 1906, but truly lost whatever claim to legitimacy they had when they were used to place Nazi Germany on moral equivalence with the West.
Of course, the corruption has been abetted by shameless American huckstering and commecialization of what is, at heart, an enterprise created and run by billionaire plutocrats who answer to nobody, and use the Olympics as a method to shamelessly shake down countries for vast amounts of tax money for the mere PRIVILEGE of hosting these vampiric Olympics.
There will be no Olympic broadcasts in my house. There is no "Olympic tradition."
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
by The Lighthouse Keeper on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:46:25 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
to the greek attire for the games. ;)
Free Barney!
by demkat620 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:48:53 PM PDT
Every men's event would be the javelin.
by JoeW on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:52:35 PM PDT
"The half-baked ideas of people are better than the ideas of half-baked people" - Jack Kilby
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:55:52 AM PDT
by stagemom on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:52:48 PM PDT
Athletes were always naked.
Single payer universal healthcare coverage saves money and saves lives.
by freelunch on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:57:20 PM PDT
...watch.
I am an anti-imperialist. I am opposed to having the eagle put its talons on any other land. -- Mark Twain
by Meteor Blades on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:19:50 PM PDT
People First Politics
by Joy Busey on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:36:23 PM PDT
Born in Oklahoma Raised in Ohio Escaped to Meechigan!!!
by MI Sooner on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:49:49 PM PDT
by stoneage on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:14:17 AM PDT
Oh, the samelessness of these Anti-American freedom haters.
Cecil B. Dimelle was right.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:59:46 AM PDT
Just try blocking YouTube.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:57:08 AM PDT
then....two balls and a putter for every athlete!! ;)
Gimme an "O", gimme a "B"...
by left my heart on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:25:36 PM PDT
dissent not only welcome... but encouraged
by newfie53523 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:32:34 PM PDT
by busternjake on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:23:48 PM PDT
that my response would highly inappropriate.
by MI Sooner on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:51:18 PM PDT
I believe it's a Canadian invention.
You really ought to do your best to act appropriately at all times.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:02:14 AM PDT
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:00:25 AM PDT
It is, after all, standard practice.
by The Lighthouse Keeper on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:53:09 PM PDT
http://news.bbc.co.uk/...
Share your dreams.
by BKuhl on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:54:34 PM PDT
by The Lighthouse Keeper on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:03:01 PM PDT
of (Mr.) Eifrig? it is "Mr. Eager". I agreee - this olympic spectacle has a lot of the 1936-spectacle. There is no need for both of them (it). Period.
by stoneage on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 03:26:56 AM PDT
Somewhere in cut and past, the link broke. I'll fix it.
by Devilstower on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:52:18 PM PDT
I believe the original games were held sans attire.
I'm sure it would at least double viewership.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:55:11 AM PDT
Remember, China has internet access too. SFGate.com probably isn't blocked. Besides, those comments really have no continuous real sentiment. How hard is it to spam pro-china comments on a website?
by JazzedInSF on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:52:06 PM PDT
by The Lighthouse Keeper on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 05:52:34 PM PDT
Interesting. Especially since the SF-based website frequently features articles on Chinese issues, Falon Gong, Taiwan, etc. I would imagine much of the comments from the Bay Area-based Chinese community, which is among the largest outside of Asia.
by LandStander on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:13:32 PM PDT
Found it in less than a second searching BaiDudotcom.
Why would it be blocked?
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:06:56 AM PDT
there are people who in fact like China?
There are also people who like Iran and Castro in Cuba too, despite our decades long "education" that they're all evil.
Web sites don't have to be blocked and they are not ordered by the government. The reality is that not everyone shares our values (nor does everyone in America).
by acnetj on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:27:27 PM PDT
between the 'Chinese civilians' and the Chinese 'government'. I hope, also, that those around the world will differentiate between 'us' as 'citizens of the USA' and the 'Bush/Cheney government'. Personally, if I were an athlete, I would boycott the olympics. Period. Each of us in our own way have to make hard choices in life...like going on strike & losing your job, defending your religious beliefs and losing friends & family. We all, at some time in our lives, are called to 'stand up and be counted'. I say to all the olympic athletes: boycott. Put yourself in the place of someone in Tibet or Darfur. Let's hope & pray that someday someone else doesnt look at us and wonder 'if we're worth it'. Well done, protesters!
Where people fear the government there is tyrany: "Where the government fears the people, you have liberty." Thomas Jefferson
by ROADRUNNER DEM on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:43:29 PM PDT
Good point on that. I didn't see that distinction today on the streets of SF as white people screamed "Shame on China" at Chinese people.
by LandStander on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:49:20 PM PDT
not being an athlete yourself. You lose nothing , sacrifice nothing. Let the others bear the burden.
Not only have you no idea about peaceful competition, athletics, sport,and the way it builds bridges but you are an opportunist as well. How noble of you!
The ignorance on this thread is not only astounding but very negative as well. Very sad.
John McCain: a survivor, not a hero. Just ask his first wife. He had his chance to be a hero and blew it.
by Pete Rock on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:10:22 PM PDT
without boycotting. Case in point: Majora Carter's brave act today as a torchbearer in San Francisco.
Try Mariva's Guide. You'll like it!
by mariva on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:45:48 PM PDT
... in Iraq.
Oh, right, that's different.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:09:20 AM PDT
... Israel, would be totally illegitimate under any circumstances of course. Because we're us, and they're them.
The Dutch children's chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen (= “kids for kids”): is a world cultural treasure.
by lotlizard on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:57:20 AM PDT
Multiply it a couple of times for a bigger population.
Then make sure that these nuts are the ONLY ones allowed to post.
Can you imagine how America would look if that were the case?
You are at the wrong end of a filter that only allows fascist shit through, and with a billion people, natural mental instability ensures a sufficient supply of that in China. Just like everywhere else.
by sagesource on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:28:40 PM PDT
I don't normally classify everyone I disagree with as posessing natural metal instabillity, but you could have a point. Dkos contains enough rubbish to convince me your arguement has merrit. Jesh, this thread does.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:13:16 AM PDT
It's a bit silly to think that Chinese people would be pleased or indifferent about these protests.
by bflaff on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:21:22 PM PDT
and they really feel like that. If China does anything wrong, it's between them and China. Americans and Europeans can mind what their own damn countries do.
The attitude results from centuries of... racism.
Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the causes of destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest... Gibbon
by Dinclusin on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:58:20 PM PDT
Racism against Chinese people does not give the Chinese government a free pass from legitimate criticism. As citizens of the world, we have every right to speak out against human rights violations wherever and whenever they occur.
by mariva on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:48:08 PM PDT
what I read is little discussion of actual human rights violations, and a lot of vague condemnations. I would really like to read a diary giving the basis for condemning China wrt Tibet, with citations. If you want to condemn, tell me specifically what you're condemning. I tried reading a few of the articles on HRW's website, and I didn't find much to criticize there, even.
You cannot depend upon American institutions to function without pressure. --MLK Jr.
by Opakapaka on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:58:15 PM PDT
Really? You don't know what's going on in Tibet? Or about the Chinese government support of crackdowns of peaceful protests in Burma?
For the record, I was hoping to attend the protest by Darfur activists today in San Francisco, but I had jury duty. Various countries and groups have big problems with the actions of the Chinese government.
by mariva on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:21:48 AM PDT
I think you ought to check your own "facts", the Chinese government applied great pressure to the Myanmar regieme to back down and was credited by the UN Special Envoy as being very helpful to negotiate access by the UN, and by promoting meetings after the UN initially was stonewalled by the regieme after arriving.
I realize the US is more keen on using bombs as instruments of diplomacy than engagement, but China seeks diplomatic relationships and constructive engagement with all of it's neighbors regardless of the government involved and is applying equal pressure to Iraq and the USA to avert a further escalation of conflict. You may choose to ignore this, but in terms of realpolitik, diplomacy tends to get more results than war even when it takes time and requires tea parties with those you might have fundamental disagreement with.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:25:35 AM PDT
over nothing? Gee, why would they waste their time like that.
I'm appalled at how many apologists there are for the Chinese government. Do you have excuses for everyone else who has a problem with the Chinese government? What's your stance on the Darfur situation? And what's your excuse for the torch thugs?
by mariva on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 11:52:46 AM PDT
They are different countries with different situations and lumping them to gether is misleading and foolish.
If you think I'm an apologist or ignorant of the facts I suggest you read my previous diaries on Burma and numerous remarks on both cases, wich seek resolution by engagement, diplomacy and reason, not grandstanding and self-congradulation that is totally no-productive.
You might consider reading and thinking about what others say before spouting-off retoric that only inflames issues, contributes nothing to productive dialogue and may you appear rather shallow.
Based on your remarks and irresponsible accusations, I doubt rather seriously tht you are well informed on the history of the region and dynamics at work, but if it pleases you to do so that's your perogotive - freedom of speeck is freedom to be foolish in some cases.
Many here you seem to characterize as "apologots" are actually knowledgeable people who understand, discuss and debate the issues in substance and with understanding of the complexity. Haven't seen that from you yet though I would welcome it, I'm an open minded person.
BTW, just in case you're wondering, I'm Chinese, a dual citizen, a political and environmental activist and totally supportive of a practical, workable solution to this situation, that can only be achieve through peacful and meaningful dialogue, and is hurt by violance in any direction and by provocative, offesive tactics that only polarize and harden positions.
Of course, what I suggest is the hard road requiring long-term commitment, not as emmotionally satisfying as making noise and congradulating yourself in the process.
Re Darfur - how much oil is the USA willing to share with the rest of the world to help alleveate the problem, and how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died in our tidy little oil war?
I deplore what is happening in both cases, but I not the USA has the highist percapita oil consumption in the world while China's is below the world average. Ad while China markets oil at or beow value (no profit) US, French and Dutch oil giants reep record profits.
Well, there you go, another cmplex situation to deal with, got any new slogans that will solve these problems?
A penny for your thoughts, in detial.
by koNko on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:05:08 AM PDT
Good idea. Please tell that to your government.
I'm not interested in "debating" the propaganda and talking points that you keep reciting. Also, your tone is that of a bully, which is to be expected because you're defending a bully government.
by mariva on Fri Apr 11, 2008 at 11:14:20 AM PDT
Have you read my Burma Diaries as I suggested elsewhere?
It's interesting to me you are so free with the insults and accusations and so parsimonious with substantial arguements and facts.
Were you to engage is serious and substantial dialogue onvthis issue I woulkd be happy to elaborate my position in detail and how it rrelates to the sitation in Burma and the prospects for politcal reform.
However, I see no indication that you intends to egage on these issues in an meaningful way, so I'll just leave you to your sloganeering and finger-pointing, please yourself.
by koNko on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 08:15:55 PM PDT
I work with a lot of Chinese students who feel this way as well. They say this is a case of bad press, plain and simple, and all criticism of China shows that Europeans are still racist and anti-asian.
I realize there are problems with this logic, but this is the belief that is held. Funny how similar it sounds to many Americans who think that anyone who criticizes their country is 'a hater' and should leave.
The most powerful argument of all for the Chinese when issues of Tibet and Darfur are of course to use one of our country's most venerated philosophers against us: "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone"
China does very bad things, but they still aren't number one in even that, we are.
Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment. --Solomon Short
by potty p on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:12:11 AM PDT
Or hardly best, for that matter.
What I'd like to see the US doing is using diplomacy and soft power rater than weapons, and adjusting it's politicl viewpoint and policy to reflect the reality of a world no longer controlled by a bi-polar superpower hegmony, and therefore seeking multilateral/multinational relationships that promote sharing burdens/responsibilities/power.
There would be much to gain and nothing to losse by that, excepet, perhaps, foolish pride.
The world has enough problems and blame to go around, I don't see the moral superiority of any.
Just my personal opinion, not representing any government here. Just my ax to grind with the world.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:32:49 AM PDT
And once again we come upon the problem of overgeneralizations, of which I am obviously guilty as well.
I think many countries have an over abundance of foolish pride and that helps cause and/or exacerbate many of the problems in the world.
by potty p on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:29:06 PM PDT
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:03:52 AM PDT
between patriotism and propaganda? Can you? There is goo and greatness in the Olympic spirit, but there is also an attitude the medal counts and bragging rights to say your country is better than another. I am afraid that the Olympics spirit has turned into a show.
And it is like the country that is awarded the Olympics has to out do the last country. I will not be watching the Olympics this year. I will not get caught up in the hype.
by kanuk on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:19:50 PM PDT
Isn't the "committee" that controls the Olympics completely undemocratic and run by a fascist with no accountability or transparency for the gazillions in profits? China seems to be perfectly representative of the "Olympic spirit."
Chomsky Fever! John McCain sucks.
by miasmo on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:30:27 PM PDT
It was also ironic that the torchbearers were literally running away from protesters in San Francisco today.
by mariva on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 11:49:32 PM PDT
I imagine the mob was somewhat intimidating.
Regardless, rather inspiring the runners persisted despite the hostile environment greeting them and the constraints of the protective measures.
It could have made a positive statement otherwise, and would not have prevented anyone from expressing themselves in a peaceful way.
Imagine an anti-war protester facing an angry mob or warmongers trying to grab their signs to silence them and you might get the flavor from the other side.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:34:34 AM PDT
The only ones who were intimidating were the aggressive pro-Chinese government apologists who were yelling at the activists for Tibetan freedom, Darfur, etc. and trying to cover their protest signs with their big red Chinese flags. (So much for freedom of expression in the U.S.)
And guess what? In this mess, there were hardly any police officers to be found. They were all busy guarding the torch on Van Ness Avenue and the highway -- from basically nobody.
Based on this, it doesn't seem as though the mayor or the police department actually actually cared about public safety at all, really -- they just cared about the perception of the torch getting through sans peaceful protests and expressions of legitimate criticism of the Chinese government.
If China wants to participate in the international community (such as with the Olympics), it should clean up its act with regard to massive human rights violations (including against its own citizens) -- or face the consequences ("embarrasing" protests around the world).
by mariva on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 12:03:30 PM PDT
Statecraft is bloody, messy work, the Chinese are doing what we (and they) have done numerous times. In fact, the old Middle Kingdom has learned a few 'new tricks' about repression and human rights violations from the good old US of A.
Tibet has a long and quite frequently changing history of being ruled by China, as a semi-autonomous region, and it's own country, but China has for quite some time, and I mean for longer that the US has actually been a country (a full generation longer, in fact) claimed sovereignty over Tibet. They should let it go? Um, most of the US was taken from cultures that still live - willing to give it all back? Free the (insert Native American Nation name here)!
Darfur? Its a resource grab, and the Chinese aren't doing it they are simply funding a regime that allows it to happen and of course selling arms to make sure it does. Pretty sure American has and continues to do this all over the world. What you driving these days, eh? You eating only food grown locally? Have you stopped using a computer with parts and assembly done in countries with repressive regimes yet? Chances are most of the protesters are part of the problem and are helping cause the resource grab in the middle east that has lead to both Iraq and Darfur, to name just the most recent cases of abuse. As we have been encouraging China to modernize they have taken to "The Great Game" and are now securing resources of their own. The Chinese politics in Darfur are mimicing our own atrocities, we just have it served up in a different less glaring light in our media when we have done it.
Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of China's actions, (I think the Olympics are a stoopid waste of money that promotes extreme nationalism too, so I stopped watching in '84) I just feel our own countries atrocities outstrip theirs by a country mile and then some. The screaming for the rights of the Tibet people is legitimate, but what are we doing to make it right by the populations and sovreign nations we decimated to make our country?
by potty p on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 06:28:41 PM PDT
of the U.S. and China. They're not mutually exclusive.
by mariva on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 10:19:57 PM PDT
It's composed of a multi-national committee, but one with the purpose of promoting the games, and all that might encompass.
I personally feel the Olymipc movement is a very positive thing regardless of the commercialism required to finance it, or the politics (in any/all directions) that infect it from the outside by those who can only see it in such narrow terms.
The next Olympic city is London, and the games there were strongly promoted by their very liberal mayor, Ken Livingstone.
Apperently unnoticed by the Kos community, the 2007 Special Olympics were already held in Shanghai. I suggest you visit the websites and then come back here to elaborate here how evil and facist this event was, held in a country trying to oppress humanity and turn every event into a PR event to polish it's reputation with the blood of innocents.
Truely a dispicable event.
Partners in crime against humanity.
Victim
Fellow-Travelers
Crass Commercialism
Oppressed Masses Deaf dancers somehow manage as people.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 07:28:09 AM PDT
there is a strong tradition in certain elements of the American left that give a pass to left wing authoritarian regimes--whether it be China, Cuba, the old Soviet Union, you name it. The right wingers do the same by attacking left wing dictaroships but defending the right wing ones.
In my eyes, a dictator uttering "proletariat" is no less a disgusting dictator than one uttering "free markets." Therefore these people will grab any excuse to tar critics as "racists" or a "anti-worker" or whatever else they can come up with to defend their loopy view that dictators are ok as long as they are left wing.
"People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution. They don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible." --J.R.
by michael1104 on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 08:57:30 PM PDT
One or two in this very thread. I'm not gonna bother to get into an argument with 'em, arguing is a waste of energy on these people. You can't argue with Ideological Man.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's intellectual inconsistency (something the Republicans specialize in). Using ideology as a cloak for repressing liberty is wrong, no matter who is doing it. They all look the same to me in the end. Chinese or American.
by The Lighthouse Keeper on Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:39:45 PM PDT
From all walks of life and all ages are volenteering to be hosts and guides for the games.
They are studying foriegn languages so they are able to communicate with vistors; practical skills like first aid and giving directions to the games and cultural events.
One great thing about the Olympics is it promotes people-to-people contact that builds mutual understanding and friendship based on common experience.
What will they face from visitors? Will this become an event poisoned by politicization promoting biterness and animosity that separates people or one that builds bridges?
I think the US has burned more than enough bridges in the international community the past few years. Perhaps that doesn't matter; perhaps the US is a self-sufficient society that has no use for the rest of the world and no need to promote understanding or build enduring relationships.
Perhaps the American left is so wise, so holy and so effective at setting the world to right that it can be the best judge in all situations. I'll admit the echo is so loud it must be proof of something great.
A Fool's Game
The back of your hand should be reward enough. It's an honour to be touched by superior beings.
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 08:04:23 AM PDT
The popular liberal code word is "Han Chinese".
I'm considering to Diary the subject to eleaborate the nuances and my personal viewpoint as a Chinese.
However, I must find the time and would also like to wait until the inflamed retoric here cools down because it would be my intention to promote productive dilogue if it's possible.
Obama is right, racism pervades humanity and comes in many disguises, even "Liberal" politics.
It would do us all good to consider the subject honestly and challenge of own assumptions by listening to others.
Almost every day I read comments here containing racist subtexts, incuding some by people I like and respect. The fact they are human and fallible doesn't put me off.
Perhaps a goood place to start is with those who confidently point fingers of denny the obvious truth.
BTW, there are quite a few Chinese blogging this site including at least a few as myself who are, as some might believe, persons with no freedom of expression or human rights. I suppose the people holding such beliefs don't spend much time on Chinese blogs, but that's a pity, because despite the apperent langyage barrier, quite a significan percentage of us are fluent in English are reply in kind when the opportunity arises.
Hey, here's an interesting bit; the Chinese government issues visas to Americans simply for paying an application fee with no background checks or long waits. Chinese wishing to visit the USA, however, are subject to a rigorious process taking months and costing hudrends of dollars, requiring background checks snd multiple interviews, and a high percentage are rejected unless they have official business to justify it or are attached to a sanctioned tourist groups making financial gaurentees and waiting for a quota opening. (Even to call the US consulate, we must purchase a value card to wait on hold to as a simple question.)
Freedom of movement for the priviledged few with the right connections and enough cash in advance. I'm not suggesting that's racist, but less than reciprocal and not quite as liberal as the policy applied to European visitors. Make of it what you like, but on the receiving end, it sure feels like "the back of the bus".
by koNko on Thu Apr 10, 2008 at 05:47:48 AM PDT
wide narrow
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