Daily Kos

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  •  Yeah, my ancestors came here illegally, that's (7+ / 0-)

    the thing.

    350 years ago, but I still don't want the INS knocking on my door.

    Thanks for the statistics, but what exactly do they prove? That our nearest neighbor with a poor domestic economy sends a lot of immigrants here. That is hardly earth-shaking. They don't prove that our visa requirements are just, only inadequate.

    (I'm guessing, mind you, because your 106 page doc actually crashed my computer.)

    The fact is millions of Mexicans being here illegally didn't ruin our economy. Our economy didn't head for the skids until after people started (mind if I use your verb?) "screaming" for mass deportations.

    -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
    Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

    by SensibleShoes on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:23:44 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Of course it didn't ruin our economy (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      revgerry

      Our affluent way of life in America has always been highly dependent on slave and near-slave labor. Without a class of ultra-exploitable workers such as slaves, blacks under Jim Crow, and/or illegal immigrations, we might have to actually pay a living wage for people to pick our fruits and veggies, bus our tables, mow our lawns and clean our houses. And if we did that, that would make the prices of all of those goods and services rise, and that would mean inflation.

      So, yes, illegal immigrants are part and parcel of our prosperous way of life here in America, just as was slavery and Jim Crow.

      •  A lot of illegal immigrants do make a living wage (0+ / 0-)

        Having taught adult ESL classes for many years, I've discussed this with many of them. I know that cases of peonage do occur, but I haven't run into anyone who wasn't happy with what they were making.

        The most abusive cases I hear about are the human trafficking for manufacture (Made in USA!) and the citrus plantations (not all of them) in Florida.

        -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
        Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

        by SensibleShoes on Mon May 12, 2008 at 03:47:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, sure some do make a "living wage" (0+ / 0-)

          but a living wage is relative if you are splitting the rent with a bunch of guys, and sending the difference home to your wife and kids in Mexico, where the dollar still goes pretty far.

          Also, to the extent that illegal immigrants are making good wages, it sure undercuts the whole "they do the jobs that Americans won't do" argument, because there are still millions of American citizens making minimum wage.

          •  They had their families here. (0+ / 0-)

            Being educated in our schools with your tax dollars.

            -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
            Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

            by SensibleShoes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:40:08 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, in re jobs Americans won't do-- (0+ / 0-)

            recently I needed some help with some heavy work. I really did offer the job first to divinely-selected Americans. No takers.

            Then I offered it to some Mexicans. What time should they show up? Did I want them to bring any tools?

            Pretty unfair competition.

            -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
            Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

            by SensibleShoes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:44:38 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My response to that is that (0+ / 0-)

              in areas of this country and in times past, this kind of work gets and got done. Are we constitutionally any different of a people in areas that don't have illegal immigrants or historically? No, I don't think so. It's just that for a brief moment in time in between slavery/Jim Crow and mass illegal immigration, working class people way down on the skill set continuum had to be paid close to middle-class wages in order for them to do the "dirty work" in our society. That was a ladder to affluence as they were able to achieve enough of a middle class status that many of their children were able to go to college, etc., and are now part of the affluent, professional class.

              Without that kind of ladder of opportunity, our society begins to look much more like a caste system, where those at the bottom will stay there, as will their children. We're getting much closer t that now.

              •  Slavery? (2+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                Nightprowlkitty, immigradvocate

                I offered $10/hr, but the guys (and one woman) did such a good job I paid em each $15/hr. I'm not sure where slavery comes into that. They did good work, I hope I paid 'em well enough for it.

                Here's how they differed from slaves:

                1. They decided to work for me.
                1. They got paid for it.
                1. When they were done they went about their business.

                Also, I don't expect to own their offspring when and if they produce any.

                I'm not following your slave analogy at all.

                -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
                Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

                by SensibleShoes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 02:26:46 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The slavery analogy (0+ / 0-)

                  is in response to people who say that illegal immigration is a critical part of our economy, that we'd all be worse off without it. The same thing absolutely held true for slavery, at least with respect to those who benefitted from it. Those of us who are affluent benefit from illegal immigration because we are able to get "good work" done for less than we'd have to pay if we had only legal residents and citizens available to do it. That would make our food cost more, our yard work, the cleaning of our houses, restaurant bills, etc.

                  Do I blame those who hire the illegal immigrants or the illegal immigrants themselves. Of course not. I pretty much expect that most people most of the time in most places will do whatever works best for them economically. If an illegal immigrant does a particular job better and for less pay than a legal citizens would, then that immigrant will be hired. If an employer in the U.S. will pay better than employers in Mexico/Central America, even sans paperwork, then people in Mexico/Central America will come to the U.S. for work.

                  But that principle also holds true in lots of other areas, that we find unacceptable. Companies will pollute the environment because it's cheaper and easier. Therefore, we enact environmental laws to prevent them from doing so. Property owners will build whatever promises to make the most money, regardless of how offensive it may be to the neighbors. Therefore we enact zoning laws to prevent them from doing so. People will drive too fast for the safety of themselves, and others. Therefore we enact speeding laws to prevent them from doing so. And so on and so forth.

                  But with respect to illegal immigration, all of the sudden it's not the same thing. It is somehow wrong to enact a law that would prevent people from entering the country without permission, and prevent employers from hiring them. And even if said law has been enacted, it's OK with us if it's violated on a massive scale, because the law was presumably unjust in the first place. I just don't agree. I don't have a problem with laws regulating who can enter and work in the United States, and I don't have a problem with those laws being enforced fairly and equally.

    •  It proves (0+ / 0-)

      Thanks for the statistics, but what exactly do they prove?

      That it wasn't really about your first comment to begin with.

      IF we had just immigration laws IF it were possible to immigrate legally for those who wish it

      Because without even looking at the document so as to prove to yourself that you were wrong, you oh so gracefully move to your next talking point.

      Our economy didn't head for the skids until after people started

      Yeah, because our economy has been in stellar shape for years, why just the other day I was commenting to a friend that if construction wages and working conditions here in Southern California got any better, I just don't know what I would do.

      If the terriers and bariffs are torn down, this economy will grow - G. Bush

      by superscalar on Mon May 12, 2008 at 04:21:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  LOL (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        SensibleShoes

        you oh so gracefully move to your next talking point.

        I believe you are describing yourself here (except for the graceful part, of course).

        Same statistics each and every time ... no context, ever.  No dealing with the subject of this diary, only picking apart commenter's comments when you see you can slap on one of your pre-digested statistics onto it.

        You are nothing more than a hijacker.

      •  Try to come here legally. (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        Nightprowlkitty

        I've followed the process numerous times from application to deportation, but I'm betting you haven't, so go ahead. Try. Then come back and tell me how "possible" it was.

        -9.0, -8.3. History is more or less bunk.--Henry Ford
        Henry Ford is more or less bunk.--history

        by SensibleShoes on Tue May 13, 2008 at 07:49:51 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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