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  •  If (14+ / 0-)

    you were an apathetic couch potato I might buy that Ken, but you're not, you care deeply about the country and the people. It's a simple calculation: I'd rather McCain be President than Pat Robertson, I'd rather Hillary Clinton be President than John McCain, I'd rather Obama be President than Clinton, etc. It's not becuase I think any of those people are saints or demons, it's a matter of rational interests, mostly mine and in large part the nation's.

    If the average apolitical individual sits out this election it doesn't mean much, but if you do it, as a well informed and passionate activist, it means you're consciously and intentionally putting dissatisfaction at Clinton or her handlers over your interests and the nation's interest.

    I don't buy it, that's not rational, not for you buddy.

    Read UTI, your free thought forum

    by DarkSyde on Mon May 12, 2008 at 05:20:47 AM PDT

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    •  hear hear (1+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      brownsox

      much as i respect teacherken, i can't see how not voting for the better of two candidates in a rigid two-party electoral system where one of them WILL win, can be justified.
      Heck, the only candidate in my lifetime that I really liked was Carter, but I was 10 months shy of voting age in November of '76. Otherwise I've always voted for the lesser of two evils.

      Anyway, the point is pretty much moot at the practical level - Obama's gonna be on the ballot this November, and we can finally be FOR someone! Yay!

      Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself... Mark Twain

      by jedley on Mon May 12, 2008 at 07:04:42 AM PDT

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    •  I have explained my reasoning on several levels (0+ / 0-)

      1. on some issues, Clinton is worse than McCain - I see no evidence she is willing to pull back on the unitary executive, for example
      1. FWIW, although this does NOT enter into my calculations, since I live in Virginia, my individual vote in a presidential election is usually pretty meaningless - when a Democrat is competitive in Virginia, he is already well over 300 electoral votes.
      1. somebody someplace has to draw lines to tell politicians they cannot operate on the basis they can assume we have to vote for them.   I reached that point with Clinton on March 8.   And before anyone starts to blame me should in fact she be the nominee (she won't) and then lose the election, the answer is - the blame is hers for how she ran a campaign and alienated strong Democratic voters.

      It is quite rational for me.  Instead I would be working my ass off to elect House Democrats despite the damage she does down ticket, in the hopes that a strong Democratic Congress would be able to keep the country from being wrecked.

      I have in the past made the decision not to vote for one office in a particular election.  I have even since I moved to Virginia once voted for a Republican, albeit for reelection to the local school board, where he was not extremely partisan, where I knew him and knew his commitment to the school system.  

      And I find quite a lot of difference between Clinton and Obama, often on issues about which I care a great deal, and on matters of war and security - despite her words about drawing down from Iraq - I find Clinton's positions on many issues, for example Iran, fully as scary as those of McCain.

      It is inappropriate to tell me or anyone else that we should abandon what we consider core principles because of how you evaluate the situation.  You can present your arguments, I can present mine.  People of good will can on many issues come to different positions.  As Democrats we in theory believe in a big tent approach.   For me personally, that does not extend to seeing Hillary Clinton in a national office, unless and until I see less arrogance and self-entitlement, more of a commitment to the good of the country over the good of her career, and  willingness to own up to the mistake in judgment she made in Iraq -  absent that last, how am I to expect that she would act in a different fashion with respect to any other international crisis?  

      I respect you even when I disagree with you.  I am not trying to change your position, I am but expressing my different point of view.

      Peace.

      do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

      by teacherken on Mon May 12, 2008 at 08:34:56 AM PDT

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