View Story | 152 comments
Comments: Expand Shrink Hide (Always) | Indented Flat (Always)
emotive based ignorant one.
by bobisbob on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:44:54 PM PDT
[ Parent ]
John McCain "Beware the terrible simplifiers" Jacob Burckhardt, Historian
by notquitedelilah on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:50:31 PM PDT
bobisbob, I hate to inform you that you don't know much about Lebanon.
You write, "the best we could do along your lines is simply leave the fight and let lebanon become like iran, which will in a way let a certain kind of fanatical shia "live in peace." my guess is it'd be shittier for most other ppl."
Where does one begin. OK...Lebanese Shiites are first and foremost Lebanese, and one of the most ridiculously myopic frameworks through which Hizballah is portrayed is that of a foreign entity operating within Lebanon, doing the bidding of Iran entirely.
There is no chance Lebanon will become like Iran, culturally or any other way, first and foremost because Shiites in Lebanon are LEBANESE, and inherit the cultural world of Lebanon which has always been pluralistic, tolerant and socially liberal (and this includes Lebanese Shiites!). Hizballah has made no effort to impose on other lebanese its own religious ideology, and Nasrallah has gone out of his way to insist on pluralism for the country.
The entire discourse of reading everything about Hizballah through Iran is just intellectual laziness. It operates as a Lebanese organization in Lebanese society, and as a part of the Lebanese government understands that it has no choice but to compromise politically with Lebanon's other groups (which is why even though it COULD have staged a coup d'etat, it chose to withdraw its forces from Beirut and reach a political settlement with the government).
Frankly, considering Lebanon's antiquated political system which severely curtails the political representation of Lebanese Shiites, who are now probably 60% of the population and have the weakest political representation in the country, I'd say it's an act of herculean restraint on the part of Hizballah NOT to take by force what has been denied Shiites for so long.
by sortalikenathan on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:33:29 AM PDT
also they didn't compromise last week. infact they also didn't compromise when they pulled their members to delegitimize the government. infact there is a distinct lack of tolerance and compromise going on right now.
and hezbollah doesn't want to run lebanon yet. the government is useful for taking the blame for the corruption and the poor economic situation. hezbollah just wants its own state, and its own military in the south, and the option to "veto" whether politically or by shutting down the entire country military to prevent incursions on "its turf."
by bobisbob on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:37:34 AM PDT
Not sure if you've ever lived there or even been there (as I have), but you seem to be confusing tolerance with political conflict. If your argument was that Hizballah is going to make Lebanon into Iran (which is what you DID write), I simply made the point that this is impossible considering Lebanese cultural history.
You seem to read Lebanese history through the convenient, and as I said before, intellectually lazy, lens of defining everythign through sectarianism.
As for the lack of compromise, as I said, and I will repeat because you likely missed it, if Hizballah wanted to "take over Lebanon" they would have done so long ago. Your argument changes as you are confronted with its weakness: on the one hand you claim Hizballah wants to take over Lebanon, on the other you say it just wants its own state in the south.
And guess what? You're wrong on both accounts. But something tells me you don't listen to other opinions because you're a know it all, so this conversation ends here.
Adios.
by sortalikenathan on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:45:21 AM PDT
that involves massive amounts of murder and hatred. I'm glad america isn't that tolerant. and hezbollah might indeed want lebanon in the future. for sure hezbollah's masters in iran want to export the shia revolution. but for now it is probably untenable and too much a strain on resources. certainly if I was hezbollah I would employ a creep strategy. since I had the weapons and the birthrate.
by bobisbob on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:48:42 AM PDT
You've pretty much made a fool of yourself throughout this message board, so I'll let your (reductive) words speak for themselves.
You sound much more like a media hack than someone with the ability to parse information and mount an intellectual argument.
Lebanon's "murder and hatred" are politically motivated. You essentialize human behavior; as though Lebanon is somewhow perpetually doomed to suffer murder and hatred because they are "intolerant". Again, an easy, convenient, intellectually lazy explanation for the political motivations of violence. Political forces which exploit people's fears, and mobilize nationalist/tribal feeling are what cause conflict; tolerance/intolerance doesn't exist in a political vacuum.
As for employing a "creep" strategy, I'd say you've been a master of that on here!
by sortalikenathan on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:11:23 AM PDT
honestly now, why do ppl always want to makeup things I've said, its so lazy. and I find your distinction to lack a difference. under what format in your way of thinking would a massive sectarian civil war lasting over a decade be "non-political" and therefore qualify as chipping away at lebanese tolerance?
and how is a society still dominated by tribal and sectarian behavior tolerant? this reminds me of the myth of tourist tolerance. everywhere you go, there you will see the "nicest ppl you've ever met," except france of course. because you are inherently non-threatening. stop being an passing fad and try to move in next door and the game doth change.
by bobisbob on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:18:12 AM PDT
"a society dominated by tribal and sectarian behavior"
what does that even mean? as though Lebanese don't mix and intermarry and work together and eat together and share the same national identity.
and you see, that's just it. the "massive sectarian civil war" wasn't simply that, and to reduce it to that is ignorance. The civil war was not ultimately about tribe and sect; it was about competing visions for the nation, and what is most relevant about understanding the civil war is the ways alliances and allegiances shifted over and over again. It had little to do with whether one was a Christian or a Shiite or a Sunni, and more to do with whether one wanted to be allied with Syria or the US or Israel.
It's clear to me that the lens with which you view Lebanon limits your capacity to think beyond trite formulas. "shiites act this way" "sunnis act this way" etc. Lebanese politics is one of shifting alliances--and when you reduce it to sect/tribe, you limit your ability to analyze shifting relationships of power that are NOT based on sect.
If lebanese politics were entirely sectarian/tribal, you wouldn't see Christians split between Hizballah and the western backed government, now would you? And you completely IGNORE the leftist politics of Lebanon, which have always played a role.
anyway, you need to do some serious reading and stop watching the news.
by sortalikenathan on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:29:01 AM PDT
because it was really about political disagreements? man, like I said, I'd hate your version of tolerance. it seems to me you're trying quite hard to muddy the waters in the hope you look worldly in your distinctions. I find it hard to swallow, but who knows maybe the grand compromise/tolerant bargain is just around the corner and lebanon will not know sectarian strife thereafter. it could happen.
by bobisbob on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:33:34 AM PDT
"it seems to me you're trying quite hard to muddy the waters in the hope you look worldly in your distinctions"
it's called thinking beyond slogans and sound bytes. look into it.
to reduce everything to sect/tribe is an easy formula. it gives you the same answer every time, and it confirms in advance everything you ever thought about them--they are irrationally attached to primordial identity, incapable of transcending and living the wonderful secular life that you lead in the West.
Again, convenient if you have no intellectual curiosity and have made up your mind already, which you apparently have.
it's far more complicated, but clearly for you the complicated reality is just too much to comprehend, so it's just "muddying the waters." well guess what? the waters are muddy. Simplifying complex situations is the province of feeble minds (see GWBush), but you seem relatively at home with that strategy.
Best of luck with that!
by sortalikenathan on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:45:23 AM PDT
really? simplifying complex situations is the province of feeble minds? actually simplifying the complex is one of the most valuable human traits.
I know thats not what you really mean, just like every other person that has used that useless complexity argument before, there is no conclusion. the argument itself is only a negation and obfuscation.
by bobisbob on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:49:29 AM PDT
The war was mostly in the north and the Shiite in the south basically tried to stay out of it. Only when Israel (a foreign power) came in, did they seriously get involved. One reason why a little more than half of Christians are allied with Hezbollah is because they know the Shiite empathize with their status as minorities in a Sunni Arab middle east. You need to read the history before you state your "opinions".
Donate to the ACLU. Stand Up for Justice In The Military Commissions Proceedings
by Valhalla on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:31:53 AM PDT
that bobisbob really is a troll.
Unfortunately, he's a pro-Israel troll, which given the dynamics on dailykos means it's impossible to use the ratings system to get rid of him.
Simply observing his behavior throughout the comment section of this diary, however, is clear evidence that he hangs around here simply to provoke fights on Middle East politics. I'm not done with the diary yet, but so far I've come across no less than three long discussion threads involving him and another user, and all of them wind up devolving into the pointless back and forth of this thread.
My advice? Follow your own first instinct: don't feed him. Just walk away.
Yes, We Can
by litho on Sat May 17, 2008 at 04:32:56 AM PDT
why do the racists who hate israel always follow me around like morons saying, "omg dont talk to him! please don't talk to him!" its so pathetic, can't you just go write a diary about how awesome hezbollah is and how israel should cease to exist?
by bobisbob on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:37:36 AM PDT
wide narrow
View Story | 152 comments