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In response to billy dalielus, I'd like to add a comment I wrote on another thread late last night: I am Hillary's age, and I grew up in a household with a strong, working mother, who herself had had a strong working mother. She was one of five sisters (no brothers) and I was one of two sisters (no brothers). As a result of this upbringing, I never felt growing up that I had to "prove" things as a woman. But I have learned that middled aged women suffer from sexist nonsense much more strongly than young women do. Once women are no longer sexually interesting to men, they are supposed to have the good manners to disappear. Men feel very free to make disparaging remarks about older women's appearance, as if they have no right to be in public if they are not sufficiently sexy and attractive, and this nonsense has plagued Hillary from the beginning of her campaign.
I am a professional actress, and I can tell you that in America, middle aged women barely exist in film, stage or TV roles (unless they are mysteriously still "babes" in middle age, like Susan Sarandon). The Brits have Maggie Smith, Judi Dench, Vanessa Redgrave, Eileen Atkins, Helen Mirren--but then they had Mrs. Thatcher, too.)
Older women in the US are criticized for having plastic surgery or botox, and equally criticized for remaining in their natural state. They are criticized for trying to look young, and criticized for letting themselves go all middled-aged. They are criticized for looking sexy, and criticized for looky dowdy. For paying attention to their clothes and hair, and criticized for wearing something comfortable and practical. Whatever disagreements I have with Hillary's campaign tactics--and I have many--this kind of disparagement galls me, and has absolutely no place in the campaign. My guess is that when a woman does come along who makes it all the way to the presidency, she will be younger than Hillary by at least 15 or 20 years.
Jail to the Chief!
by SottoVoce on Thu May 08, 2008 at 05:39:58 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin
by WI Dem on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:15:01 AM PDT
Sotto's interpretive comment is what makes this site important to me.
If appended to a hidden comment, does it exist in the rest of the site?
Sotto's comments should be diaried if they are hidden.
Do you have a child? Will you send her to the war?... anon
by andreww on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:40:47 AM PDT
only individual comments that receive a sufficient ratio of HRs get hidden
"Going to church does not make us Christians any more than stepping into our garage makes us a car." --Rev R. Neville
by catleigh on Thu May 08, 2008 at 06:50:52 AM PDT
..that the whole subthread depending from the hidden comment is now invisible to non-TU's reading the diary. It could be accessed through the commenter's page, but who's going to go looking for it?
Another OWW4O (thanks, Cyber Kat!)
by Ahianne on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:12:14 AM PDT
Thoughtful, to the point discussions such as sotto started, which will add to the community, will not be shared with the rest of the community.
I understand the site-specific whys. I would like sottovoce's comments to get some air under them.
by andreww on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:40:10 AM PDT
but I'm not sure that younger women actually suffer less. If they fit the sterotype of what is 'sexy' (ie. rail thin, plastered with make-up, and dressed provocotively), then they may get a lot of male approval, but only in a sexual way. For the millions who don't fit the sterotype (especially, God forbid, if they're overweight), they get denegrated just as much as middle-aged women. I remember the first time I saw one of those 'No Fat Chicks' bumper stickers, and I was just blown away by the sheer arrogance of it--that some men still feel like it's a woman's obligation to decorate their world in exactly the way they want. Far too many men still feel that way and refuse to take any woman seriously in a professional role.
by catleigh on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:06:48 AM PDT
Is seeing a guy with an enormous beer gut sporting a "No Fat Chicks" t-shirt. Every time I see that, I have to fight the urge to say, "No woman worth her salt would want you, either."
"Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26
by LynneK on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:10:40 AM PDT
A euphemism I now embrace. I know where you are coming from, noweasels. I had similar experiences in medical school, where women (and a black woman to boot), were not welcomed as we were thought to only practice for 5 - 10 years before getting married and having children. Sexism and racism were rampant in the 70's and '80's and I think those of us who survived are tough ol' gals. And Hillary is tough: you had to be when you entered the big boys' game. The beginning of this election season, I was ready to vote for HRC. I thought that pundits vastly underestimated the desire of all women (red, blue, conservative liberal blue collar white collar and pink collar) to elect a woman president. I felt (and continue to feel) very uncomfortable with the mysogyny of some (see above), particularly Chris Matthews. That said, Hillary lost my vote by her behavior and the behavior of her surrogates (I'm talking about you, Bill). I wish HRC had just run her race, rather than resorting to low blows, fake tears and oh pity me. I think the "the boys are ganging up on me" made me lose it. Us tough old gals never whined about it, we stood there and said "Is that all you got". I resented that she felt she had to resort to some contrived feminine wiles, alternating between put upon victim and some three testicular, hyper androgynous freak. I am still wanting and waiting to vote for a woman. Only this time, not this woman.
C'est la guerre!
by never forget 2000 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:48:32 AM PDT
And I wholly endorse your name!
by SottoVoce on Thu May 08, 2008 at 07:51:22 AM PDT
My first two years of med school in the late 70's, while still in the classroom and lab, I was aware of no discrimination whatsoever. Then I got onto the wards--Internal Medicine at County--and ran into the most God-awful bunch of macho men, from the intern all the way up through the attending on the service. It felt like hitting a wall. It didn't kill me, but it didn't make me stronger either, at least not at first. Now, many years later, after encountering the same attitudes time and time again, I feel battle-tested, resilient, and not inclined to take any s*** from anyone.
One thing we 'tough old gals' know, as you point out, is that you don't whine, you don't complain, and you don't play the pity card. Hillary broke that code of honor, and I am disgusted with her for that.
by gardenkitty on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:29:29 AM PDT
We fought the good fight, didn't we?
by never forget 2000 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 12:12:58 PM PDT
a hundred times.
John McCain--Anti-choice and anti-woman!
by Sharoney on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:49:59 PM PDT
would you honor us by making it into one? What you say is SO true, and given the demographics of this blog, it would start a VERY interesting conversation here.
Pretty Bird Woman House has a new house!
by betson08 on Thu May 08, 2008 at 08:43:02 AM PDT
I agree with what you are saying, for the most part. However, you have to admit that there is a flip side to this notion in our society that older women are supposed to just 'disappear'... and that is that a young woman with no personality, no intelligence, and nothing useful to say can still get plenty of attention and affirmation just for being attractive. It is kind of like women emjoy this advantage over men until about age 30, and then it rapidly swings in the other direction from there.
It turns out that Bush IS a uniter... he united the good half of the country virulently against him.
by fizziks on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:32:22 AM PDT
everywhere not to depend on their physical beauty and is also one of my strongest beliefs. It is crucial for a woman [as well as a man] to develop themselves as fully as possible. Life is so much more enjoyable as an interesting woman than as a trophy. I read a review of Eleanor Coppola's memoir today, about life with husband Francis Ford Coppola and being on the fringes of so many exciting events; this is a woman with a full and developed life. I feel sorry for the young thin simpletons who think their lives will be the same way in the future as they are now. And BTW: there is a beauty in an aging face, it's called: character.
In youth we learn, in age we understand.
by Jbeaudill on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:52:25 AM PDT
turn this into a diary on how women are viewed. Thanks for your perception and insight ... from another older woman.
by Jbeaudill on Thu May 08, 2008 at 09:45:25 AM PDT
wide narrow
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