Skip to main content

View Diary: Subbing/Fry'd Daze 3 (Israel/Palestine Open Thread) (505 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  You know what, daud? (2+ / 1-)

    You're a arrogant, condescending little pisser. You contribute nothing of value to this site. For a so-called 'professor', you're shockingly badly informed about Democratic politics, America, and anything having to do with this country's policies.

    Nor, for that matter, do you seem to have the ability, crucial for academics and certainly teachers, to entertain arguments at variance with your own.

    Rather, what I see from you is a constant stream of consciousness, occasionally punctuated by lame-ass insults, flowing like a rivulet into a desert of incoherence.

    What you don't realize, I think, is that you're a complete laughingstock. A buffoon. The 'pro-Israel' Kossacks laugh at you. I know I do.

    I'll go further and say that you don't really understand this site beyond your own parochial, solipsistic little interests. The riches, the joys, the sorrows of it, you'll never understand. So many stories have been written here that you know nothing about. Love, anger, pain, triumph, I've seen it all. You're not even looking for that.

    I've learned tremendously in the four years I've been on this site. I've also made many friends, and am a part of networks here and in the further web that you don't even know about, and never will.

    It comes down to this: I know I have to keep on learning till I die. You don't. You're some patriarch at a lectern yelling down into a rowdy schoolroom. I'm the brat having a grand old time throwing paper airplanes at you.

    Have a good night, wherever you are.

    It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

    by MBNYC on Fri May 21, 2010 at 07:49:46 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  ya know... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      livosh1, MBNYC, volleyboy1

      MBNYC while i share some of the sentiment you just wrote... please don't stoop. by any standard of the blog, someone who continually insults and attacks other personally is a troll. i wonder when if he will stop or be stopped. thanks for listening!

      "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

      by canadian gal on Fri May 21, 2010 at 08:03:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It will end (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        livosh1, canadian gal

        at some point. It's just irksome, really something out of grammar school. And there are days when I take this seriously; today, after the huge Muhammad Cartoons diary, I can't anymore.

        Time for a drink and then off to bed. Good night.

        It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

        by MBNYC on Fri May 21, 2010 at 08:12:49 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  stoop? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        General Choomin

        maybe you didn't notice MBNYC's benchmark for disgusting ad hominem insults here far surpasses anything in the parent.
        thanks for listening!

      •  That's your response to this post? (5+ / 0-)

        Disappointing. I expected more from you. MBNYC has repeately made substance-free attacks on Arabs Kossacks which he refuses to walk back or apologize when given repeated opportunities to do so. He has linked to racist anti-Muslim and anti-Arab sites and made comments consistent with those sites here. In this diary, he has recommended a book by a well-known Nakba denier (kinda like recommending David Irving to a Jew/Israeli). Despite repeated and reasonably civil attempts to educate him on the offensiveness of his behavior, he has not changed his views or his behavior. The fact that you now defend this personal attack that he has made rather than hr it is something I find disappointing. Not least of which because this diary is supposed to be a flame-free zone and you do little to enforce that. Only you know the reasons why but the rest of us can speculate.

        Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

        by Fire bad tree pretty on Sat May 22, 2010 at 04:05:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i am accountable... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MBNYC, volleyboy1

          for myself not others behaviour. the fact that i keep having to repeat this is quite absurd. as to:

          Not least of which because this diary is supposed to be a flame-free zone and you do little to enforce that. Only you know the reasons why but the rest of us can speculate.

          but in my book, claiming someone makes 'substance-free attacks on Arabs Kossacks' does nothing but fan those flames. but more than that - i was in and out yesterday (as was my TU status) and when i came back it was clear that things were beyond repair.

          "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

          by canadian gal on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:23:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Links (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            unspeakable, General Choomin

            See here for the first time I caught MBNYC making unsubstantiated accusations against Arab Kossacks. See here for his unsatisfactory response. See here for me proving him wrong. And then read the rest of the thread where he does not retract his remarks nor apologize for his comments even though he offered to do it here. And just what exactly is ambiguous about MBNYC rec'ing a Nakba denier in this diary? Do I really need to link to that?

            So now that I have (once again) substantiated my comments, are you still going to maintain that I am fanning the flames?

            I accept that you may not have been around to monitor what is going on. I also accept that it was probably beyond anyone's  power to do so. I don't accept that I am fanning the flames.

            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

            by Fire bad tree pretty on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:46:32 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Indeed. (0+ / 0-)

              It's almost June, those comments are from January, and you have posted them to me at least six times. And you do this not to make a point, but precisely to fan flames.

              Simple, really.

              It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

              by MBNYC on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:59:22 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  well... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              livosh1, JNEREBEL, MBNYC, volleyboy1

              i think the point is that whether you feel justified in saying it or not - it does indeed fan the flames.

              occasionally i learn something in these threads - and usually its from someone that is willing to discuss an issue without insults, ad-homs, etc. i try and treat people with respect until they demonstrate that they are no longer deserving of it (which i am sad to say - is a list that grows with each month).

              if your desire is to explain to MBNYC (or anyone for that matter) why something is wrong or worthy of a different way of thinking, then my opinion is that is a better approach to stop assigning motives based on yours (or theirs ala simone) ethnicity. that's not to say that i think that providing an arab pov isn't extremely valuable and insightful - its just that its not what defines it.

              anyway - its my 2 cents for whatever its worth.

              "You can make a profound intellectual statement just by basing your efforts on silliness." -- Donald Roller Wilson

              by canadian gal on Sat May 22, 2010 at 09:56:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Indeed (5+ / 0-)

                I have on more than several occasions (as he points out in this thread) tried to have calm, reasonable discussions with MBNYC about these issues. Look here and here. In the latter link, MBNYC even tries to flatter me by calling me 'smart, calm and reasonable'. But he shows that even though he can see clearly the wrongs made by others, he cannot acknowledge those he has committed himself. Now an apology and a commitment to not making unsubstantiated attacks on Arab Kossacks would go a long way to removing any desire of mine to talk about this issue again. However, that is something this poster has repeatedly proven he is unable to do.

                As for assigning blame re: ethnicity, if you read the first set of links I gave you, sofia herself tried to make excuses for his behavior here and used his German heritage as part of the reason for his strong support for Jewish issues. She doesn't believe he is unreachable but I have been seriously trying to reach out to him and explain how his unfounded and disproven accusations against us are offensive and insulting and wrong. To no avail. After all that, what is that you expect me? Am I supposed to say that unproven accusations against me and others are ok? Am I supposed to think it's ok when he links to racist websites? Am I supposed to be ok that those who support his views find his offensive behavior ok and will even defend him rather than have the minimal decency to stay quiet? I don't expect anyone on the pro-I side to call him out. Perhaps I just expect you to not defend him when shown just how offensively he is behaving.

                That's not to mention that he has now taken to belittling and patronising me and engaging in name-calling in this very thread. I have not responded in kind. But am I supposed to be ok with that too?

                Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:01:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  With respect (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  livosh1

                  that is so much self-serving claptrap.

                  You haven't been trying to 'engage [me] in reasonable conversation'. You've been hounding me around the site since January, demanding  an 'apology' for comments that are at best debatable - why don't you pull them up, since you obviously have an entire library of links to my stuff - and furthermore, trying to bully me into being, I don't know, more 'pro-Palestinian' than I am, or, for that matter, most people are.

                  And then there's all this crap.

                  Sarcasm can also be used in a personal attack. Now that may not have been your intent but it was certainly the outcome. You may wish to adjust the way you communicate to avoid misunderstanding in the future. A snark or sarcasm label might be useful.

                  If you don't choose to have this feud, then apologize for your previous bad behavior. Redemption awaits you.

                  Really? Who died and put you in charge of redemption around here?

                  What you've also done is rec up every single outrageous personal attack made on me by your cohort. Such as this bit of racist bullshit:

                  Now that it has turned out that he is neither  Jewish nor Arab, but German himself his harassments have a different aspect to them.

                  Got that? He's German, so he must be, well, what? Probably a Nazi. You recommended that, along with the rest of simone's racist pap in this diary, so really, you can take your demands, your threats, and your spurious offer of redemption and direct them to someone who cares.

                  It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

                  by MBNYC on Sun May 23, 2010 at 12:26:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  That's crap (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie, unspeakable, simone daud

                    I have never used your heritage or anyone else's against them nor do I think it is relevant to the topic, as I responded to sofia's initial comment about you that she has reposted below/above.I have never called you a Nazi or thought of you that way. What I have done is make clear to your where you have linked to racist websites, said racist things about Arabs/Muslims and where you have made personal attacks on the 5 Arabs who frequent these threads. You choose to make light of your continued attacks and your links to racist websites.

                    If you had chosen to follow my links and read what I wrote to sofia when she talked about you to me, you would know that I married someone who is half-German and my mother-in-law is German. She was 11 years-old when the war ended. Most of her family still lives there. I am hardly someone who thinks that Germans are Nazis. You stop linking to racist websites, recommending Nakba denialists, flaunting the superiority of European culture vis-a-vis Arab culture etc then you won't get the pushback that you get here.

                    Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                    by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun May 23, 2010 at 05:38:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  This.. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  livosh1, MBNYC, volleyboy1

                  sofia herself tried to make excuses for his behavior here and used his German heritage as part of the reason for his strong support for Jewish issues.

                  ..is a misleading characterization of a comment I made back in JANUARY, which was an attempt find some kind of less acrimonious relationship between you, a few others, and MBNYC at the time the fighting began (as I remember it).

                  Fbtp.. (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:livosh1, MBNYC, blueness
                  ..this is a response to sorta and unspeakable, and anyone else interested in this thread as well.

                  I want to be careful not to speak for MBNYC, but I've known him for a long time, and I do not believe his "pro-Israel" stance is based on anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment, or that he is targeting Arab posters in particular in these threads.   Most of you were not here at the time, but you should have seen the fights he and litho used to have; jon, tom, and heathlander as well.

                  That said, of course I understand what you're saying and take your concerns very seriously.  He may have some stereotypical views of Arab societies, most Americans do, but that doesn't, in my view mean he's unreachable or uneducationable (did I just make up a word? ;)) on those issues or a bigot.   However I do not think he will be persuaded from his stanch pro-Israel stance, that in my view is based on Israel generally speaking being liberal on social issues, and his half German heritage and upbringing in Germany, where, from my experience sympathy for the Jewish people is very strong, for the obvious reason.  There may be other reasons as well, but those are two that he's articulated previously in these threads.

                  Unadikum!

                  by sofia on Tue Jan 26, 2010 at 02:39:55 PM EDT

                  I was not "making excuses" for MBNYC and that comment was a response to responses I'd recieved after I'd criticised MBNYCfor making an unfounded charge that there was no criticism of Arab governments in these threads by Arab commenters.

                  As you can see from the comment I stated clearly that, "but those are two that he's articulated previously in these threads" not as you imply it was something I had found "obvious" myself because he is half-German.

                  Finally it has been well-known in these threads that MBNYC is not Jewish for years.   He has articulated that fact, many, many, times, as well as his background.

                  I will not comment further on this.   If you feel you have proof that MBNYC is racist toward Arabs, take it to Meteor Blades, just as if MBNYC believes he is being accused unjustly of being racist and targeted in order to shut him up, he should do the same.  

                  •  But you see (0+ / 0-)

                    here's the thing, and I don't expect you to agree with me or endorse what I'm saying.

                    This whole thing has been going on for months. Fine - typical boring I/P flamewars. Today, we've officially learned, to loud applause from the peanut gallery, that non-Jews and non-Arabs can't really talk about the subject. Brilliant.

                    And as far as Meteor Blades is concerned, I would be fucking embarrassed to drag this childish crap to him.

                    It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

                    by MBNYC on Sun May 23, 2010 at 05:48:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  I accept your characterisation of (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie

                    your intentions. In response, I amend 'excuses' for 'reasons'. This would all go away if MBNYC acknowledged his false accustions (as he stated he would and has not). I'm not sure whether he would stop making false accusations against us in the future, stop linking to racist websites, or recommend books by Nakba denialsts but you never know..

                    Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                    by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun May 23, 2010 at 06:03:41 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  The thing that really puzzles me though (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    zannie, callmecassandra

                    does anyone else think that MBNYC should retract a false accusation when he offered to do so if proven wrong? Or am I living in a Kafka novel where it's ok for nothing to make sense to me?

                    Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                    by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun May 23, 2010 at 06:55:00 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You can forget it. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      zannie, Fire bad tree pretty

                      The thing that really puzzles me though does anyone else think that MBNYC should retract a false accusation when he offered to do so if proven wrong?

                      He should. But, it'll never happen.

                      The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world She didn't exist.

                      by callmecassandra on Sun May 23, 2010 at 07:02:09 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thanks cassandra (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        zannie, callmecassandra

                        I do have the feeling of bashing my head against a brick wall at the moment so I think it's probably time to get my head away from the wall. This whole situation makes me appreciate someone like volleyboy1. I disagree with him a lot and we have pissed each other off a lot but we have both apologized to each other on different occasions for when we've offended to each other. A simple 'hey I'm sorry about that, i ddin't mean it and I won't do it again' goes a long way.  

                        Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                        by Fire bad tree pretty on Sun May 23, 2010 at 07:11:47 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You still don't get it, do you? (0+ / 0-)

                          First of all, clearly, you are incredibly immature. I say this because, one, you have followed - stalked is probably the better term - me around the site since January. A rational adult would at some point decide that, "hey, this guy is an asshole, and I'm wasting my time". And two, I have several times informed you that I really have little recollection of what it is that you're complaining about. You seem to have not only a library of what I say, but a near-perfect recall thereof.

                          What a fucking waste of otherwise usable brain space.

                          And meanwhile, while you demand contrition from me, you enable the worst behavior of your friends, vis-a-vis myself and every single other pro-Israel Kossack. The hypocrisy of your behavior is glaring and unfortunately quite consistent.

                          And all of that said, I'm fully aware that engaging you is a waste of time. So this is the last I have to say about all of this.

                          It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

                          by MBNYC on Mon May 24, 2010 at 02:43:50 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

          •  This is not your fault. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            livosh1, volleyboy1, canadian gal

            And don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

            The responsibility here lies with simone and myself, him for provoking me - and Red Sox, Paul, volley and god alone knows whom else - and me for taking the bit in my teeth.

            And that's really all there is to say.

            It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

            by MBNYC on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:53:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  It's not worth it, fbtp. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Fire bad tree pretty

          This diary went to shit because the idea of a flame-free, safe, and open P-I diary is ridiculous, especially one that's maintained by only one side.

          Structurally, this diary series is hostile to anyone with a pro-Palestinian point of view. It's pointless to bicker over the fact that the attacks against us were allowed, while our responses were called out.

          If the pro-I and anti-P users want a place to talk about their own issues, they are more than welcome to it. But I don't believe we should be validating our treatment here by participating further in this diary series.

          Sufficiently advanced cluelessness is indistinguishable from malice. -- Clark's Law

          by unspeakable on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:38:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, I do have to agree with you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            unspeakable

            only very reluctantly. I value productive and flame-free dialogue. I find it depressing that I have to put so many peeple on my personal do-not-engage list because I find their personal attacks and substance-free accusations hard to stomach. I think I'll stop now.

            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

            by Fire bad tree pretty on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:51:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah yeah yeah... (0+ / 0-)

          ...here comes FBTP now, because poor little simone obviously can't handle himself on the playground.

          For the record, I'm not interested in being educated by you. That is neither your place nor presumably within your purview. And you, my dear, need to do some serious evaluating, as to whether or not your caterwauling here, after your buddy's constant insipid provocations, is anything short of hypocritical.

          Like canadian gal says (and no, much as I value it and her, I don't require her assistance):

          someone who continually insults and attacks other personally is a troll. i wonder when if he will stop or be stopped.

          She's talking about simone. I'm not even going to go into all the many ways in which he's offensive to pretty much all of the pro-Israel posters, but here's one of my favorites.

          And since you have never, to the best of my knowledge, ever said even a single word about any of this, which implies either consent, tolerance or willful ignorance, with regret, I'm not interested in whatever criticisms you may have of me.

          And lastly, the book you're talking about was published by Yale. So I'm going to assume, sight unseen, that it's not quite in the same league as David Irving.

          Have a nice day.

          It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

          by MBNYC on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:44:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You will notice that I did not rec (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Terra Mystica, unspeakable

            that comment by simone (in fact I strongly disagree with it) and I have several times called him on his behavior when I believe it has crossed the line as sometimes it has. I feel sad that you don't have anyone sympathetic to your views who can pull you back when you are being equally ridiculous.

            Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

            by Fire bad tree pretty on Sat May 22, 2010 at 06:55:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Really now? (0+ / 1-)
              Recommended by:
              Hidden by:
              General Choomin

              Sorry, sweetie, but I don't need adult supervision on a daily basis. And I especially don't need anyone to tell me that homophobic, sexist and, often enough, outright racist drivel really aren't acceptable.

              I turned on karmafish and deaniac. I wonder whether you have the integrity to do the same.

              It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

              by MBNYC on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:04:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I am not your sweetie (4+ / 0-)

                and I would appreciate it if you stopped trying to belittle and patronise me with endearments.

                As for you accusation that simone is as bad a karma or deaniac - that's quite a stretch. And I'm a master of understatement.

                Buffy: "Your logic does not resemble our earth logic" Xander: "Mine is much more advanced". BtVS, The Wish.

                by Fire bad tree pretty on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:13:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Of course. (0+ / 0-)

                  As expected, she avoids an answer. I wonder why I even bother, truly I do.

                  It is better to be feared than loved, if you cannot be both.

                  by MBNYC on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:23:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  look here (0+ / 0-)

                    stop insulting people in IP diaries.

                    It seems that you have planted yourself in IP diaries, not being either Jewish or Arab or in any way related to the situation there,  without any appreciation of our interwinding identities, harassing Arabs with what you think is their lack of German high culture.  

                    Harassing Nathan an Iraqi/Egyptian Arab with Mozart,  and others with their lack of appreciation of German ecclesiastical music. And Arab culture in general because of its distance from German culture.  Harassing Nathan about his complaints about racism in Germany. Being offensive to  Nathan because he should appreciate the bigotry he experiences in Germany.

                    So take it easy, and I'll say it once again you can learn a lot, if you let yourself, from Arabs here.

                    No we are not German and German high culture is not something that either Arabs or Jews or anyone in Israel aspires to emulate. And yes I have never bought a VW for a reason.

                    Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                    by simone daud on Sat May 22, 2010 at 08:12:47 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  OH here we go again (0+ / 0-)

                with your insults.  So basically you have planted yourself in IP diaries, not being either Jewish or Arab or in any way related to the situation there, having no clue about Arabic or Hebrew harassing the Arabs in the forum including sortalike nathan and myself by insisting that they listen to Mozart and attempting  teaching them about various aspects of German high culture.

                This just doesn't make sense.  

                If you want to contribute to the IP debates here, then start learning and I suggest that you ought to start learning from the Arabs here.

                Previously I posted under the user name palestinian professor, which is now deprecated. I now post under my late grandfather's name simone daud.

                by simone daud on Sat May 22, 2010 at 07:48:08 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

    •  HAHAHA (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      zannie, Eiron

      Rather, what I see from you is a constant stream of consciousness, occasionally punctuated by lame-ass insults, flowing like a rivulet into a desert of incoherence.

      What you don't realize, I think, is that you're a complete laughingstock. A buffoon. The 'pro-Israel' Kossacks laugh at you. I know I do.

      I'll go further and say that you don't really understand this site beyond your own parochial, solipsistic little interests. The riches, the joys, the sorrows of it, you'll never understand. So many stories have been written here that you know nothing about. Love, anger, pain, triumph, I've seen it all. You're not even looking for that.

      My Irony meter blew up at your screed.  Way to project!  HAHAHAHA

      I will vote, but always with a caution that voting is not crucial, and organizing is the important thing.

      by General Choomin on Fri May 21, 2010 at 10:25:05 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site