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View Diary: New Hampshire to LGBTs: Happy New Year! Now Die. (222 comments)

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  •  There's something of a tradeoff, you realize (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    musing85, psychodrew, Clarknt67

    I've written many 'dry' diaries with a lot of good information that never made it to the rec list.

    One sometimes needs a 'hook' to get some attention.  I thought my title achieved that, with, guilty as charged, some hyperbole and perhaps some offense.

    •  The real problem here might be that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jpmassar

      I'm fighting a losing battle that has nothing at all to do with gay marriage -- it's the battle of reason over emotion.

      Hooks make me inherently distrustful of the information that follows. Maybe we've just reached the point where I'm alone in that view.

      I don't want to distrust the information you've presented -- thus my initial response.

      At any rate, I thank you for your patience with me here.

      I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

      by kenlac on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 11:24:46 AM PST

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      •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        musing85, Clarknt67

        Do you think everything that you write is an expression of pure reason? Do you present your arguments in symbolic logic?

        The world of reason is mostly inseparable from the world of emotion.

        Ok, so I read the polls.

        by andgarden on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 11:29:18 AM PST

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        •  I would say on the basis of what I've posted (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Clarknt67, jpmassar

          here today, probably not. ;)

          I would say on the basis of what I did NOT hit the "post" button on, DEFINITELY not.

          I won't agree that the reason is inseparable from emotion, but it is pretty damn hard to keep them from associating with each other. The fact that I deleted some of my... uh... "thoughts"... before posting them shows that there's at least a bit of division, yes?

          What I do like to think is that reason and emotion are partners that can get you to a good outcome when they're in balance. Appeals to emotion are frequently out of balance -- I immediately get the sensation of being manipulated, and I don't think I'm that far out of line feeling that way, even if the intent is "innocent".

          Clearly I feel that DKos has gotten extremely out of balance, and the unfortunate RainbowGirl episode provides some evidence for that view (and please believe me, I am in no way comparing this diary to that). Maybe I just wasn't made for these times.

          I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

          by kenlac on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 11:49:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ...and... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jpmassar

            now I really have hijacked the thread, in spite of my intentions not to. So I'll try to let it go here.

            I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

            by kenlac on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 11:50:56 AM PST

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          •  I always try (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            musing85, Clarknt67, jpmassar

            to stick to the substance. I am frankly not very interested in talking about how we talk about the issues.

            But I have to admit that I find it hard not to read your quibble with the rhetoric as proxy for a quibble with discussing the subject at all. Or, to be more specific, your underlying notion that this really isn't an important issue.

            Ok, so I read the polls.

            by andgarden on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 11:55:27 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I intend no proxy whatsoever. (2+ / 0-)
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              andgarden, jpmassar

              And as I have said in other comments, the strength of my objection is rooted in the very importance of the issue.

              Perhaps I'm just too damn meta by nature.

              I'm a concert pianist with a double doctorate... AND YOU CAN BE TOO!

              by kenlac on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 12:06:22 PM PST

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              •  There's an old expression (5+ / 0-)

                roughly, it says that a liberal is someone too open-minded to take his own side in an argument.

                Ok, so I read the polls.

                by andgarden on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 12:08:58 PM PST

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              •  Hey kenlac, I'm not sure you truly understand. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                musing85, Dem Beans, Clarknt67, jpmassar

                Or perhaps it is that I don't truly understand your point.

                Homophobic movements invariably change lives.  Even for those who themselves get no particular personal benefit or are personally threatened by the proposals themselves.  Every person who is openly LGBT for any length of time could tell you stories about how, if they weren't attacked directly or indirectly out of homophobia, or the restrictions placed upon them, their lives would be different -- and the ones who tell the tales are the ones who survive the discrimination.

                My father and I missed 20 years of each others lives because of homophobia.

                Family relationships are destroyed or irrevocably altered.  Sometimes this is for the better, after much stress, all too often, for the worse.  And we all know in times like this, adding unnecessary stress to a population already under economic stress, kills.

                Hate crimes against LGBT people invariably increases in the area where the homophobic proposal is being debated.  Teen suicide increases.

                That the message is by the state's own motto, by elimination -- if they don't want you to live free, they want you to "die" -- is it important to you that it's drops of blood and indirect instead of oceans of blood?  Is it hyperbole -- really -- when some people really will take this implicit message to heart?

                I think even your meta is misplaced.  Homophobia does lead to death.  Where it doesn't lead to death, people's lives are irrevocably changed and sometimes savagely curtailed.

                So, I'm not quite sure what your point is?  Is it that only a few LGBT people will die because of it?  And how many will die?  How many is actually little enough for you?

                How many drops of blood, measured in lives, is it worth for them to do this?  That's a bad question?  Why?

                •  That clearly wasn't the author's intent though. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jpmassar

                  His/her intent was a dramatic headline and then an explanation that it was essentially a play on words.

                  While you're right-on about lack of full civil rights contributing to feelings and actions of ostracision (sp?), you've just written a long comment that seems to imply that one action is at direct fault for another action, even though there are several more layers of choice that occurs before the end result.

                  Donk is a poker term for someone who is really bad at "the game". Still, a poor choice in name I guess.

                  by DonkSlayer on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 12:48:21 PM PST

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                  •  If you keep a filthy kitchen, sooner or later you (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    musing85, Clarknt67, jpmassar

                    will get vermin.  Unless you have a house isolated by a quarantine zone from the rest of the world and never go in or out, you will get roaches, rats, flies, or what have you.  It's inevitable -- only a matter of time and statistical probability.

                    Similarly, if you have a state, country, town or municipality in which homophobia is given official sanction, sooner or later that open countenancing will lead to people dying who did not have to.

                    So, I imply nothing.  

                    It is the direct fault of those government officials who use government time to cater to the homophobic whims of homophobes that those people die.  They may not be murderers, not directly, but the statistics don't lie.  It is their fault -- by statistical truth, even when there are layers of "choice" involved (by the way, when people's lives are altered for the worse, it is seldom by choice).

                    And the play on words essentially cuts to the bare bones truth.  So even if it was or is a play on words, the fact that it is nothing but the truth makes it not "hyperbole" at all.

          •  Tipped for humorous self-deprecation (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jpmassar

             I would say on the basis of what I've posted here today, probably not. ;)

            "You can't hardly separate homosexuals from subversives."--Senator Kenneth Wherry, 1950.

            by Scott Wooledge on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 02:18:12 PM PST

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      •  I think this is at issue (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        musing85, jpmassar, freedapeople

        I'm fighting a losing battle of reason over emotion.

        Believe me, in my years blogging. I've experimented. As much as I'd love to indulge my more reasoned civilized self, that rhetoric fails far more often. Indulging a Huff Post flare for a flashy headline works to draw attention to your issue.

        (Plus I agree with Andy, these may not be life and death issues to straight people, but the demonstrably are to gay people.)  

        "You can't hardly separate homosexuals from subversives."--Senator Kenneth Wherry, 1950.

        by Scott Wooledge on Sat Jan 01, 2011 at 01:47:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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