Skip to main content

View Diary: Students Vandalize Recruiting Office (action pics and poll) (90 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Yeah I actually misread the sentiment here (4+ / 0-)

    I'm actually really surprised that folks here are condoning the vandalism.  That's not what civil disobediance is about (not the kind that my parents taught me, which is what their parents taught to them, who were taught by Gandhi during the Indian independence movement).  It's about bringing about change by forcing your opponent to become your ally through compassion and understanding - by forcing your opponent to be the human being he or she really is, by forcing your opponent to embrace a sense of common humanity.  Granted it's a long, slow process, but the point is not quickness, it's doing good in an honourable, compassionate fashion.

    Give me liberty, or give me death!

    by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 09:15:23 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  What about the Boston Tea Party? (6+ / 0-)

      Maybe they should have just carried signs and written the government letters delineating their complaints.

      Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann

      by Kayakbiker on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 09:36:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Dude (0+ / 0-)

        Don't tell me that you're comparing the U.S. military to British imperialists.  You should retract that now.

        Give me liberty, or give me death!

        by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:16:01 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i think not. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          melvin, buhdydharma
          this is an accurate reference in the context of colonial rebellion.

          whereas yours begs the question of iraqi violence against deployed US troops in iraq.

          in the domestic US, national guard and reserve typically have been employed to quash domestic unrest, uh, civil disobedience or enforce compliance. and yes sometimes enlisted troops have been deployed.

          you also want to reconsider how many of indians were commissioned by the british, how many of gandhi's followers died in that war of independence.

          Diversity is the key to economic and political evolution.

          by MarketTrustee on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:42:02 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Pressed post a little too quickly (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cecrops Tangaroa, Kayakbiker

        Those were different times, too.  We shouldn't forget that.  Now that we know that there's another way of doing things we should realise that and update accordingly.  

        Actually doesn't what you just wrote give you even more appreciation for the genius of Gandhi?  Just imagine - he freed a whole country without doing even a Boston Tea Party!

        Give me liberty, or give me death!

        by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:18:31 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe if the kids had been taught Gandhi's ... (0+ / 0-)

          methods in school they would have pursued them rather than the ones they were taught that is the model for our country.  

          Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity. Horace Mann

          by Kayakbiker on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:20:42 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Gandhi didnt do a Boston Tea Party? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eternal Hope, melvin, buhdydharma
          •  If I'm not mistaken.. (0+ / 0-)

            ..this is a picture from the salt gathering, is that correct?  How is that in any way like the Tea Party?

            Give me liberty, or give me death!

            by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:40:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well Gandhi sprinkled (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kayakbiker, melvin, buhdydharma

              some salt into his tea during negotiations after the march and remarked "it was a little salt for my tea, to remind us of the Boston tea party."

              I think the protests are strikingly similar, and I'm somewhat used to the 2 events being referred to simultaneously.

              You could listen to this NPR story for more:

              http://www.npr.org/...

              I could make a bulleted list if you prefer.

              •  Ok maybe I was being unclear (0+ / 0-)

                Sorry about that.  Really what I mean is that the salt march is nothing like the tea party in the sense of using vandalism as a means to an end.  

                The diarist made the sarcastic point (it's a valid criticism of this whole approach, in my opinion, just one that I weigh the pros and cons of and decide to ignore), in response to my criticism of using vandalism against the military recruiting station, that maybe the Tea Party folks should've just written letters, etc.  I then made the point that Gandhi managed to free India without even that much vandalism.  So in that context I don't see how the salt march is at all germane to this discussion - but that's a hell of a picture and I'm going to steal it :-)

                The other thing I wanted to say and accidentally left out is that if you must choose physical destruction as a means, there's a difference between enacting destruction against a foreign aggressor (a la Boston Tea Party) and your fellow citizens (military recruiting stations).  That is important to remember.

                Give me liberty, or give me death!

                by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 10:58:15 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The British (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MarketTrustee

                  certainly considered both to be acts of vandalism.

                  The Boston Tea Party and the Salt March were both non-violent acts of vandalism against foreign powers forming a monopoly to the detriment of local citizens.

                  I agree that mounting a protest against recruiting stations is probably not so comparable anyway because of the lack of foreign element.

                •  is property more important than freedom? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MarketTrustee

                  reality...is the result of war between two rival groups of Programmers

                  by buhdydharma on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 11:27:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not helpful (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    buhdydharma

                    This kind of reductio ad absurdum is not helpful in analysing what's going on, I think.  Obviously when push comes to shove, property is not more important than freedom.  But you're offering a false dilemma that simply never really comes up.  The important thing isn't to sit back and debate whether property is more important than freedom - it's to be effective in securing freedom.  And it's very rare that only destruction of property (or life) is the only way to achieve that end - in fact among the only instances I can think of at all that perhaps required property destruction was something like the French Revolution and even that took the violence to excess.  

                    Gandhi's genius was not just in morality - he was a savvy politicial genius as well.  He realised that it would be impossible for India to throw off the yoke of British imperialism by force so he did it by peace, without destruction, instead.  Martin Luther King's savvy political genius came to the same conclusion because he realised that his people needed to actually live side-by-side with the people he was protesting against after the revolution ended, and he realised that violence would surely leave emotions raw for a long time and make peaceful coexistence hard to achieve.

                    What I'm saying is that we need to appreciate the political wisdom of Gandhi and King.  Vandalising a military recruiting office may seem like a fair thing to do, but it's not an effective thing to do - it just allows our opponents to paint us in a negative light and we've gone down that road too many times now.  It also belies the fact that our fight isn't with the little guys at the bottom - it's with the big guys at the top and so vandalising a little doesn't actually achieve our end at all.

                    Give me liberty, or give me death!

                    by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 12:14:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  and again i ask (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kayakbiker, melvin, MarketTrustee

                      Where is a ghandi, where is a King.

                      The fact that we are discussing it so thoroughly, means implicitly that it is effective, if not morally pure.

                      or opponents always paint us in the worst possible light, evidence or not. you know this. Is the PR value to them more valuable or is having somone standing up and saying NO, even if it is NOT done perfectly, more valuable? what about the young activists who, now they are involved cam mature and become more effective? What are they worth.

                      I'm sorry but if you constantly measure your actions and THOUGHTS by what the RW will say you have already lost. Read sun tzu, the republicans have.

                      And finally I'm sure if the 16 yr old kids could have thrown paint on rumsfeld they would have...what other target for their anger at having their future transformed into an endless War on Terror?

                      reality...is the result of war between two rival groups of Programmers

                      by buhdydharma on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 12:23:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  the link below (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              melvin, buhdydharma

              the picture also has more info on the salt march.

        •  I you find a new ghandi to unify behind (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Kayakbiker, melvin, MarketTrustee
          let me know.

          I'm afraid I'm not going to sit around and wait

          reality...is the result of war between two rival groups of Programmers

          by buhdydharma on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 11:22:16 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Barack? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            buhdydharma

            He might be our guy someday.  But you're right, we really have a dearth of truly visionary leaders right now and that's really distressing.  I actually cannot think of a time since the Great Depression that we've had such mediocre people in power.  All I'm asking, though, is that we focus on antagonising the Big Fish and not worry so much about little things.  We're doing really well on this right now and we could wreck everything by engaging in the latter.

            Give me liberty, or give me death!

            by salsa0000 on Sat Apr 29, 2006 at 12:19:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site