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View Diary: Overlooking Oversight (122 comments)

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  •  They're thieves. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    SkiBumLee, Eikyu Saha

    What I don't understand is why when 54% of America also thinks they're liars (or at least W is) we're so afraid of impeachement?

    •  it's not smart yet (21+ / 0-)

      the RNC is sending out letter after letter claiming we're going to impeach. Do we want to give them juicy quotes to help them raise money?

      Nope.

      Oversight first.

      •  Well from you... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eikyu Saha, ms badger

        g10 I'll accept that.

      •  Dean on This Week (9+ / 0-)

        Dean was on fire and spoke eloquently on what a Dem Congressional majority would do to get the country back on track. He handled the impeachment question well and spoke about the need to investigate to get to the bottom of all the deceit and corruption.

      •  If Dems give no signal this year (5+ / 0-)

        that they're prepared to impeach if that is where the evidence leads, then you can be certain that if they do recapture the House they'll turn around a foreswear any responsibility to pursue that path. Sure, they might allow investigations, but the leadership will declare, whatever an investigation turns up, that they didn't run on impeachment so they can't drop such a bombshell on the public.

        No national conversation this year about impeachment, no action. Bush walks.

        Inconvenient News Doing my part to afflict the comfortable.

        by smintheus on Sun May 07, 2006 at 06:45:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't agree (3+ / 0-)

          All it takes is a few chairman of key committees to start this whole ball rolling. Once they start uncovering the crap these guys have pulled, everyone, including all democrats and many republicans will jump on board. So I think it is going to be hell for the entire GOP if the dems get back congress.

          •  Sorry (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SkiBumLee

            There's been enough crap exposed to the daylight for dozens of impeachments of Bush and cronies: Downing Street Memos, Plamegate, domestic spying by the NSA, to mention but three. Nothing as actually been done about them, apart from Conyers and a few others holding "investigations" that have led nowhere. I don't hold out any hope that things will change if the Dems get a congressional majority. They have too much to lose themselves.

        •  Rep. Conyers (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ek hornbeck, Kdoug, nonnie9999

          will have subpoena power. he has given every indication, and i believe, that he will use it. early. often. effectively. this administration will not be able to withstand the scrutiny of a conyers investigation. either they will flatly refuse to comply and go down in flames or they'll comply - and go down in flames.

          •  I'm not talking about Conyers' interest (0+ / 0-)

            in pursuing it. I'm saying that the Dem leadership will not allow it to go beyond the point of investigation; it won't lead to concrete steps to hold Bush accountable. That's why it's critical for citizens to put the Dems on the spot during this campaign, and make it be known that we demand accountability for all the wrongs Bush has done. Failing pressure from below, the usual suspects in DC, if they retake the House, will claim that voters showed no interest in their taking on Bush.

            Inconvenient News Doing my part to afflict the comfortable.

            by smintheus on Sun May 07, 2006 at 09:19:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  My psychic friend says he (0+ / 0-)

            is (Bush) taken care of and he will be gone!  No clue about how it will happen.

        •  they might not have a choice... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ek hornbeck, Stripe

          the states are coming out for impeachment, and once the state legislatures send the docs to the house, the house must take up the discussion. no other business can be taken care of until the subject of impeachment has been exhausted.

          I didn't get Jack from Abramoff...I'm not a Republican!

          by nonnie9999 on Sun May 07, 2006 at 08:14:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Every day, Sean Hannity says a Speaker Pelosi (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ek hornbeck, boofdah

        will raise taxes and impeach Bush as her first acts.

        Good, I say. But he is trying to do it to scare his listeners to rile them up to vote in November.  He knows disheartened republicans will be staying home in November.

        The Democratic party - the party of sanity, reason and kindness.

        by adigal on Sun May 07, 2006 at 07:14:14 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  like usual, thugs 6 moves ahead of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Patricia Taylor

          DC Dems

          Before my Howard moment here in Seattle, 13 May 2003,

          I was completely f$%^ing disgusted with all the purported Dem presidential candidates - I saw a bunch of old white boy losers who Rove would ALWAYS be 6 steps ahead of.

          remember Dean ain't electable and Kerry was? that came from Rove cuz he knew how to beat kerry and dean was a wild card.

          I got a real job & it ain't politics,

          but, this carpihng about impeachment is SOP for these guys

          6 steps ahead of our hapless helpless Dems.

          ugh.

          rmm.

          http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

          by seabos84 on Sun May 07, 2006 at 07:24:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  In NY Times online right now - Rove has been busy (6+ / 0-)

            busy, busy, busy:

            Senate Republicans sent out a fund-raising letter this week seeking to use that possibility to fire up the base, warning that a Democratic majority would put fighting terrorism "on the back burner" and that "our worst fears" could be realized.

            The Democratic party - the party of sanity, reason and kindness.

            by adigal on Sun May 07, 2006 at 08:00:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  no one is as good at evil as these guys - (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              adigal, ek hornbeck

              they are the best at what they do.

              rmm.

              http://www.liemail.com/BambooGrassroots.html

              by seabos84 on Sun May 07, 2006 at 08:25:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  They forgot about the homosexual marriages (0+ / 0-)

              Senate Republicans sent out a fund-raising letter this week seeking to use that possibility to fire up the base, warning that a Democratic majority would put fighting terrorism "on the back burner" and that "our worst fears" could be realized.

              Rove is one step ahead? Please.. they already did this in 2004 and are just falling back on old tricks. Classic arguments:

              #1: "The terrorists will kill us all if the Democrats get elected"
              #2: "Gays will be allowed to marry and the entire country will fall into the sea as God hates gay people".

              #1. You are more likely to die from driving to work everyday, or smoking, or eating American food, than by a terrorist.

              #2. God also hates people who misuse his intentions or his name for thier own personal gain. Well, that is the impression I got from the Bible at least.

      •  Oversight maybe therapeutic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Stripe
        IMPEACHMENT is the CURE.
      •  Impeachment? Really? (0+ / 0-)

        As much as I'd like to be done with the SOB, there are some realities that need to be faced.  If the democrats are seen as only (or primarely) running on impeachment, then it will seem to be a political action.  The intent may be tainted in the public's eye by the overt way it was undertaken.

        The previous president was impeached because, well, they didn't like him and they could.  It was political.  If democrats impeach bush and it is perceived as because they don't like him and they can, not only will the public recoil (and perhaps overlook quite valid reasons FOR impeachment) but we will have set a horrible precedent - if you have the presidency and congress in the hands of different parties, impeachment simply becomes a political option.  The next thing you can add to the mix is involvement by the military and what do you have?  A Banana Republic.

        I think democrats must go into the election vowing for oversight, promising to investigate what has been actively and unneccessarily covered up.  We should take the evidence where it leads us without prejudging it.  Personally I think unless we were to win both houses of congress with strong majorities (a virtual impossibility given the way repubs have gerrymandered the districts to their favor around the country) it would likely take the better part of two years to mount a case.  I'd rather keep the bums around - constantly under ivestigation than be seen as driven by removal of bush from power.

        Besides, have you really considered what a "President Cheney" would mean?

        •  Without a doubt and I agree with you. (0+ / 0-)

          If the democrats are seen as only (or primarely) running on impeachment, then it will seem to be a political action.  The intent may be tainted in the public's eye by the overt way it was undertaken.

          And that's why drooling fools like Matt Drudge are pushing that idea, just check out yesterdays front page on his site..

          Drudge Screen Cap

          That headline is one of the most incredible things I've seen in some time.

          But let's face the reality that only a handful of democrats in either the house or senate would be willing to impeach Bush.. the rest will go on voting for more patriot acts, more of Bush's wars, etc etc.

        •  Play the same game, get the same result (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          felix19, ek hornbeck

          Timid, timid little people

          S T O P    I T  !!

          Come ON.

          Tarheel dem:

          If democrats impeach bush and it is perceived as because they don't like him and they can, not only will the public recoil

          If...and... - not a very strong argument. It is a simple matter to make the reason for impeachment clear. There are ongoing, multiple capital crimes to investigate. You've fallen into Rove's trap. And as to setting a precedent, the GOP already did that, as i show below.
          Georgia10:

          Do we want to give them juicy quotes to help them raise money?

          Please tell me how a quote like this will raise money for the GOP
          "I, (D) candidate X, promise to my constituents that I will strongly push for the return of law and order to our government, and will pursue evidence of wrongdoing to the fullest extent of the law, no matter where it leads, including the president"

          Besides, the GOP has all the money they need, and if not they'll launder some more.
          Advice to keep powder dry at this point is beyond cautious and well into paralysis.

          Look, they impeached Clinton for political reasons, yes? That's the big fear?
          DID THEY SUFFER FOR IT?
          One of those political reasons had nothing to do with Clinton. It was to poison the well and make Democrats allergic.
          And you are buying it.
          It's not political. It's enforcing a clear prescription in the Constitution.

          Drudge, Hannity et al are framing this as if impeachment were a foregone conclusion, just a matter of fixing the facts around the policy

          And you're BUYING IT.
          Many crimes have been committed and continue. Oversight must include the threat of the highest possible sanction in order to maen anything.
          Now, I firmly believe that any serious investigation into the Bush Junta will yield massive criminal convictions and impeachment of the president. We might even find out who the Anthrax terrorists were.
          But that will all come out at trial.

          I am highly disturbed by the repetition of bullshit Conventional wisdom and Republican talking points in this thread.
          This is the DLC version of Appeasement Democrats.
          If you need more convincing, and apparently, the triangulators among you do, please read
          my diary on using censure/impeachment to help democrats, or any of the impeachment diaries of Kagro X.
          Break out of the rut of 20th century thinking, or get the result you're used to. losing.

          Election fraud, negligence, torture, spying... What's it gonna take? A BJ?

          by kamarvt on Mon May 08, 2006 at 06:06:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What I don't buy (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mjd in florida, kamarvt

            is convicting before trial.  Indicting prior to investigation.  If that is where the trail leads, so be it.  By insisting that we MUST push for impeachment we become what they are.  And that's not where I want to be.  

            It is fine to call for impeachment here - this is an open forum, nobody expects policy to come directly out of a blog.  Let's expect our representatives to open the doors on secrecy, to allow the light of day to shine on the slimy under-belly of politics per Rove.  The candidate line you (kamarvt) give (above) is in line with what I am saying - we're going to investigate and let the facts take us where they will.  But for dems to run for office pushing impeachment at this point would not only be a mistake, it would be bad government.  Now really, haven't we had enough of that?

            •  Then we're in (0+ / 0-)

              much more agreement than I supposed. My bad, I've read enough of your thoughts to know better. Your point about dKos open forum is well taken, as I said, I see no way any rigorous investigation into any one of several of Bushco 's escapades wouldn't uncover crimes against the Constitution, and can take that as a starting point here. Sad but true, we have much work to get enough people to realize the rotten core that breeds this stuff must be excised before more permanent damage is done (i.e. SCOTUS)

              Election fraud, negligence, torture, spying... What's it gonna take? A BJ?

              by kamarvt on Mon May 08, 2006 at 07:12:20 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Love you too dude (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ek hornbeck, kamarvt

                And by the way, I agree that "giving them fodder to flog us with" is not a valid reason for stifling open discussion.  They are going to accuse us of being heretics, communists, treasonous, .... regardless of what we say - or don't say.  Does not matter.  So we must go forward resolutely.  The momentum is with us, which is what really makes them dangerous.

        •  Isn't there already a 'President Cheney'? (0+ / 0-)
      •  Yes (0+ / 0-)

        The democrats could lay out several lines of inquiry that they will pursue....missing money in Iraq, the energy task force, the medicare blunder, any others?  This should be the answer they give......oversight as the JOB of congress in HELPING the executive branch do it's job.

    •  It's human nature (5+ / 0-)

      To not want having the fact that you were scammed shoved in your face.  They would like to think it was all a big misunderstanding, but it wasn't.  The trick is to ease them past the denial phase and into the anger phase.

      •  Ease who? (5+ / 0-)

        USA Today
        Is honest and trustworthy
        4/28-30 41% yes 56% no.

        CNN
        Is honest and trustworthy
        4/21-23 40% yes 55% no.

        ABC News
        He is honest and trustworthy
        3/2-5 44% yes 55% no.

      •  More to it than that... fear and hatred (3+ / 0-)

        While I agree with you, your point is only part of the picture, in my opinion.

        Bush and his cohort appeal to the dark side that resides in varying degrees in all of us.  He particularly appeals to those whose emotional maturity was terminated at some point in their development, people who need to transfer and project onto scapegoats their own capacities for evil (such as is the practice among religious fundamentalists).  This is to whom Bush appeals, just as Hitler appealed to the same cohort in post-Weimar Germany.

        This capacity for human evil exists just as strongly in our nation as it did in early human history.  While our chimp and gorilla cousins sit in a big leafy tree, we sit on the branch alongside them in the same tree.

        I have hope for 2006.  But I hold no illusions as to our nation's "moral compass".  The needle will swing in response to fear.  Fear is the wildcard.

        And it is because of fear that the Democrats must offer up their own "Feuherer" figure to counter the psychic defense mechanisms of projection and transferrence of self/other hatred that exists in our nation.  But offer up a father figure that despite projecting great strength and capability to defend with violence is nonetheless in reality disinclined to do so.  We have not seen the end of Bush's destructive intentions.

        "Life is forever menaced by chaos and must restore balance with every intake of breath"-- Jean Gebser

        by rangemaster on Sun May 07, 2006 at 07:07:23 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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