Skip to main content

View Diary: A Liberal Foreign Policy: The Lessons Iraq Debacle Opponents Did Not Forget (163 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Millions is an exaggeration and yours .... (0+ / 0-)

    is standard, pro-U.S. Cold War view that has zero basis in reality. Read Gar Alperovitz. Read Hasegawa. Read Hiroshima in America.

    re:  "Look at Leningrad."

    Why? The military situation was not remotely similar. Not landlocked, etc.

    The argument that nuking Japan "saved lives" is a post-bombing justification that has no basis in fact.

    See the excellent LIBERAL book on the subject by Robert Lifton and Greg Mitchell, Hiroshima in America

    Greg Mitchell is the executive editor of Editor & Publisher, whom we here on Dkos quote all the time. Hiroshima in America is an eye-opener.

    If you don't want to dig up books, look here:
    http://doug-long.com/...

    Take the House. Take the Senate. Take them Now.

    by skywriter on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:24:46 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  OF course it has basis in fact (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2

      Much more basis than what you are saying.

      Seriously, you need to read the PRIMARY sources and non people's agendas.

      "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

      by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:29:27 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have read primary sources, including Japanese (0+ / 0-)

        You might consider reading Hiroshima in America.

        Take the House. Take the Senate. Take them Now.

        by skywriter on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:40:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You might consider reading (0+ / 0-)

          The Japanese Cabinet meeting of August 9, 1845.

          "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

          by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:56:35 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But you did not recognize (0+ / 0-)

          The Japanese Cabinet meeting of August 9?

          "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

          by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 07:09:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Japanese Cabinet meeting August 9 (0+ / 0-)

            This is one piece of evidence. There are others as shown at
            http://www.gwu.edu/...

            Not apparent from your arguments is that there is serious  disagreement about this momentous decision, and that opponent positions are not "silly" and that there is a possibility that valid points can be made by those who happen to disagree with both you and Thomas Frank, the most eloquent and cogent recent defender of the decision to nuke.

            http://www.gwu.edu/...
            lays out the pros and cons very well.

            One of the most important arguments was made years ago in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. June/July 1986 A Postwar Myth: 500,000 U.S. Lives Saved by Barton J. Bernstein

            Bernstein destroys the argument that it was militarily necessary. If that is accepted, the argument that it was neither moral nor wise fall into place even more strongly.

            Take the House. Take the Senate. Take them Now.

            by skywriter on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:33:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is silly to argue (0+ / 0-)

              Japan was going to surrender.

              Which is what this subthread was about.

              "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

              by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:37:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  BTW (0+ / 0-)

              Military necessaity is a complete red herring.

              No one said it was necessary but that it was the better choice for the United States.

              "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

              by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:38:39 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wrong. (0+ / 0-)

                It was argued strenuously that nuking H and N was militarily necessary. That was THE central argument.

                "better choice"-- well yeah, but the devil's hiding in that phrase. the U.S. very definitely had a choice. Coming off a string of victories in the South Pacific, it had the upper hand. And, that choice had less to do with Japan and the military reality of its stance than it had to do with the US trying to impress Stalin with its new nukie toys. There is strong evidence from PRIMARY SOURCES that the US began the Cold War with the Soviet Union with the nuking of Japan, that the goal was not so much in subduing Japan, which was subdued and all but surrendered, but in stopping the Soviets from entering Japan and taking part in the occupation. The nukings were markers that brought post-war Japan into the US sphere of influence.  

                To put this in context, look at it this way. There were two victors in WWII-- the US and USSR.
                As an ally, the USSR decisively beat Germany and that was the first turning point in the war. We know the US role better so need to examine that. As the war wound down, and after Germany's surrender, eyes turned toward the stubborn Japanese, headed by men who didn't care how many of its people were destroyed in its quest for whatever.

                With the ending of the war, the US quickly grasped that its former best friend, Stalin, was now its main competitor, and the first order of business in that competition was to show who would boss Japan during the occupation. How to do that better than to devastate two cities and become the nation of occupation, an occupation that continues to this day.

                So that, I submit, is the content and context of the "better choice" you reference.

                Take the House. Take the Senate. Take them Now.

                by skywriter on Fri May 12, 2006 at 09:02:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site