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View Diary: A Liberal Foreign Policy: The Lessons Iraq Debacle Opponents Did Not Forget (163 comments)

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  •  What exactly do disconnected quotes show? (0+ / 0-)

    Nothing?

    Read Hasegawa for context.

    Take the House. Take the Senate. Take them Now.

    by skywriter on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:38:36 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Context? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      vcmvo2

      Two days AFTER Hiroshima, the Amry and NAvy Minister were totally against SURRENDER!

      What effing context are you talking about?

      It took the Emperor's violation of the Japanese Constitution to force surrender on Japan.

      I am sorry, what freaking context are you talking about?

      Finally those are not disconnected quotes - those are the MINUTES of the Japanese Cabinet meeting of August 9, 1945.

      It tells  me all I need about your argument.

      You call the Japanese cabinet meting of August 9, 1945 a "collection of unconnected quotes."

      You are not arguing this seriously.

      "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

      by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 06:56:01 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  re: context? (0+ / 0-)

        Point.
        Yes, I only looked at the last few pages which made it appear the quotes were disconnected.

        Still, that was one meeting. There were other factors in the decision to nuke two cities that were mostly without military installations.

        There are compelling arguments that the U.S. decision was not wise and it was not moral nor militarily necessary, all strong arguments.

        Today, you could easily point to the presidential mad man of Iran to make a convincing argument to nuke Iran. Oh yes he did make fascistic statements. No question about that.

        When would you advise the bombing begin?

        Take the House. Take the Senate. Take them Now.

        by skywriter on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:08:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That was one meeting (0+ / 0-)

          And that one meeting eviscerates the argument that Japan was prepared to surrender.

          I don;t know how you think you can explain that away.

          "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

          by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 08:16:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because you keep using 'surrender' (0+ / 0-)

            according to Truman's terms.

            Truman had the option of negotiating a peace before Hiroshima.  He refused, because he didn't like the terms.

            We can agree or disagree with the terms of that surrender, but we can't say "Japan didn't want to surrender."  That's simply not true.

            And he refused to negotiate at all.  That puts the weight of guilt on him, in my opinion.

            Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

            by pico on Fri May 12, 2006 at 09:26:46 AM PDT

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            •  What terms? (0+ / 0-)

              "All knew that Armando was an Armory of Wisdom. But then, who are these with whom Armando crossed verbal swords?"

              by Armando on Fri May 12, 2006 at 09:33:37 AM PDT

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              •  Absolute, total surrender. (0+ / 0-)

                If you're in a position of power, that is unacceptable as long as you have even the slightest bit of self-interest left.  That's why we rarely, rarely use it, but Roosevelt had dusted it off for the German theatre.  

                Suggested terms had included some retainer of the Japanese monarchy, some form of national military, etc.  I'm not saying these were "good" options, but the point is, you had something on the table to negotiate.  

                Truman had no interest.  So Japan had no incentive to stop fighting.  So we had to drop the bomb.  

                That's why I put part of the culpability on Truman.

                Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                by pico on Fri May 12, 2006 at 09:46:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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