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View Diary: GOP donors funding Nader (143 comments)

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  •  You want to stay home? (2.90)
    Then stay home.  One less vote for Nader.

    You know what, colanut?  Nader is the opposition.  His supporters are supporters of the opposition.  Yet even as they lie about Kerry's message, claiming as you do that he has nothing more than "I'm not Bush," they expect us to be nice to them.

    Fuck that.  You want to run against Kerry?  You can damn well expect Kerry to run against you.

    •  With us or Against us (2.66)
      What totally lazy thinking. If that is the message, no wonder 2002 went so well for the democrats.

      First you assume I'm a Nader voter. No one owns my vote and I use it as I see fit. Your vicious hatefulness is the problem with the democratic party. You can't draw new voters or even your own party, but by golly you can sure pile it on people who might have been on your side. Keep up Rove's work.

      •  Nader is against us. (3.00)
        He's proven it time and time and time again.  Why shouldn't I treat him as the opposition?  It's certainly how he treats me.

        As for "vicious hatefulness," I doubt the Democrats could ever match Nader's 2000 campaign.  But you know what?  I'd like to try.

        Also, you "might have been" on my side?  Would you have attacked Kerry as nothing more than "I'm not Bush" while you were there?  Because if so, you've got a fucked idea of solidarity.

        •  I really don't see what you are getting at. (2.50)
          By that logic, "Don't ask, don't tell" and DoM Democrats are the enemy of the LGBT community? Shouldn't they also act accordingly?

          Also are you suggestion there is only one way to be a Democrat? Because that is certainly not a party I'm interested in working with. But if that is the way you feel, then don't be surprised when  people shy away from your position.

          •  And (none)
            Nader can be worked with?

            Kerry/Richardson'04

            by wells on Sat Mar 27, 2004 at 03:34:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not Nader (3.28)
              but the people who are on the fence and the people who are registered Democrats but don't vote. And even those who aren't registered but could be engaged and involved.

              I am suggesting that the whole Nader issue is a phantom and drains energy from the task at hand: putting forth a strong Democratic candidate and policy. I think that threads like this (whether they intended to or not) expose a really petty side of the Democratic party.

              •  I don't think Kerry (none)
                is really thinking about Nader at all when dealing with his candidacy and policy.  The only way Nader comes up is when talking about poll numbers in MI, WI, MN, and OH.

                People are always sitting on the fence.  And whoever they choose to vote for, at least they vote because the state and local issues down that ballot extreemly important to their daily lives.  One person in my office wants Kerry to beat bush badly, but is going to vote for Nader.  It is not about building the Greens, its about feeling good.  This person is right on many things, but majority rules and you can do more when in power.  This election is about gaining power.  Someone wrote yesterday that one difference between Bush and Nixon is that Nixon was a conservative in a liberal America while Bush is a conservative in conservative America.  They have all three branches of government.  How can one claim to be a liberal and sit on the fence.  The choice is clear.

                Kerry/Richardson'04

                by wells on Sat Mar 27, 2004 at 03:57:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  You're not that stupid. (2.80)
            Don't pretend to be.

            It's pretty simple: Nader is not our ally.  He is our enemy.  He has proven it by shitting on our party, our candidates, and doing so over and over and over again.  He should expect the same in return.

            Same goes for his supporters.

            •  Can we apply this same logic (3.33)
              It's pretty simple: Nader is not our ally.  He is our enemy.  He has proven it by shitting on our party, our candidates, and doing so over and over and over again.  He should expect the same in return.

               to Zell Miller and his followers? (who are, essentally, NASCAR Dads)....and how about guys like Biden and Lieberman who continually undercut Democratic efforts to assume an upright posture.

              And how about all the social conservatives here who are continually preaching their 'the Democratic party is too socially liberal'  line even though they're fully aware that social conservatism benefits white males at the expense of women and people of color, even though they know that should the dems cave on, say, abortion, it would result in massive electoral losses and an unprecedented circular firing squad (not to mention double digits for Nader) What about these idiots who would nominate McCain or Powell for VP?

              I'm no fan of Ralph Nader, I genuinely loathe the man and have no respect for him at all but I never talk to past or present Nader voters in the way that folks here do. I prefer to reserve my genuine distaste for Republicans and social conservatives (who, as an electorate) really suck and actually are my enemies.)

              "...the definition of a gaffe in Washington is somebody who tells the truth but shouldn't have." Howard Dean

              by colleen on Sat Mar 27, 2004 at 06:09:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No love for Zell. (none)
                He's no different from Nader - they're both men who claim to support the principles that underlie the Democratic Party while attacking the people its members have chosen to represent them.

                As for the others, I'd rather judge on a case-by-case basis.

    •  ok then (3.00)
      tell me Kerry's message so far in a sound byte. Looks like he's gonna have an economic plan, some of what I heard sounded good, the rest didn't. I know its still early, so I expect him hopefully soon to have an identifiable sound byte message. So far tho', I agree w/ colanut, not much but "I'm not Bush". That's my own observation so far. Is it a lie?

      Supporters of Nader are the opposition? Aren't some of Nader's 2000 voters Democrats? Isn't it important to win them back? Don't we want to win some of the greens and independents over?

      I think it's fine to mention the funding issue, but calling him a tool, whore, sellout etc... is going to leave a bad taste in '00 supporters' mouths. Especially since they've been listening to Dems malign and blame him and them for Bush's win for the past 3 years.

      So, the people who the Dems lost in 2000, who purportedly also lost them the election, should put up w/ character assassination and  blame/name calling for 3 years.
      Then be expected to fall in line and vote for the party without any public criticism/ questioning of candidates and policies (aiding the enemy), and without any concessions or outreach from the Dems. If they don't, they are mindless nitwits that should just fuck off because we don't need their stinkin' votes?

      You're right. Why be nice? Fuck 'em... They're the enemy.

      I kinda agree w/ colanut about the troll thing, but I would characterize most of the comments above more like a bash fest than a real trolling thing. But trolls like to bash too, so maybe that's what colanut was getting at.

      stop with the kicking!

      •  Let me summarize... (4.00)
        the opinions of the loudest on this thread so far.

        Supporters of Nader are the opposition? Aren't some of Nader's 2000 voters Democrats? Isn't it important to win them back? Don't we want to win some of the greens and independents over?

        Yes.  No.  No.  No.

        "We have met the enemy and he is us."  (Apologies to Walt Kelly.)  Seriously, the way this thread has begun is so reflexive as to shock this longtime dKos participant.

        It should be possible to support the Democratic Party while not becoming a fanatical cheerleader.  If the Republican Party drifted to become more in line with my views of how to improve this country--hey, this is hypothetical--I should hope I'd have the intelligence and humility to vote Republican.

        Likewise, to continue to mindlessly denigrate supoprters of Nader, and to imply on thin evidence that he is now a hired GOP shill, is a farce.  I agree with nearly everyone here that Ralph's candidacy is horribly misguided, and I share your frustration.  But slamming the folks who have chosen to support him, or who at least are holding out the threat of doing so, strikes me as positively Republican.  Fristian, even.

      •  Hatred of Nader (4.00)
        It's really simple, although I am not sure how justified. Nader made an effective and honest case the last time around about how the two main party candidates appeared identical, notice appeared, not were! He appealed to liberals to accept a real choice because his line was that Bore/Gush were identical. America has been living the effects of that rational for the last 3.5 years. I think everyone here, and most Nader supporters, would agree that Bush's actions as president have been much farther to the right of Gore.

        So now we have another election, and Nader is running because he wants to offer the electorate a real choice. What angers the Dems so much is that they are now viewing Nader supporters like fervent Bush supporters, ie, people with their head in the sand who won't wake up to the real world. What makes the anger so vituperative is that unlike the Republicans who are far away from 'us' on the ideological divide, the Nader supporters are close to us. Nader hurts because he is like your once-loved brother who is fighting against you, effectively aiding your sworn enemy who is ALSO his sworn enemy.

        Nader made a good claim at the similarities of the two parties in 2000.  Now one party has sacrificed national security, started a war 'just for fun', attacks basic constitutional rights and lost 3 million jobs....and here is Ralph again claiming there is no difference between the parties....it just hurts...it's like a kick in the teeth when your 'friend' says, 'well the Republicans did all that but you Dems are the same.' It makes you want to cry laugh or scream.  

        Don't blame me....I voted for Kodos!

        by coheninjapan on Sat Mar 27, 2004 at 10:21:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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