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View Diary: The Progressive Answer to Illegal Immigration: DEVELOP MEXICO - Update: Begin w/90 "micro-regions"! (245 comments)

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  •  The Church can exercise influence without... (1+ / 0-)
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    ...being directly involved in politics.  In fact, by appearing to stay out of politics, it can exercise influence without being held responsible.  But it still is a major buttress in suppressing change in the society by promoting a culture of acceptance of the indignity, injustice and oppression that is the every day life of the poor in Mexico.  And rather than allow any change that would actually redistribute wealth or political power, the Church's "ministry" to the needs of poor, applies band-aids that let the crimes against the people continue.

    "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" -Stephen Colbert (-6.38/ -4.21)

    by wonkydonkey on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 08:44:27 AM PDT

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    •  Odd, I don't see that here (5+ / 0-)

      I have worked with the government here for 3 years now, and not once have I heard, what would the Church say? I have also made a lot of jokes in my newspaper at the new Pope's expense, and have repeatedly satired the Church as a whole. Back lash? No. In fact, I got a lot of pats on the back.

      If any thing, the Church is in decline due to the growing evanglistic movement sweeping Mexico.

      Priests for a long time were not allowed to even wear thier flocks in the streets, and trust me, after the Inquisition in Mexico, the average dude on the street is a little weary of giving them anything that resembles political control.

      I am also not sure where I suppression and indignity in every day life, but I live el bajio and not the city where poverty is more extreme. But the Church is not all powerful as you as. In fact, during the Presidential campaign cycle, I have yet to see a single reference by any candidate on any level even mention the Catholic Church.

      And in fact, in San Luis de la Paz in Guanajuato, a local politican used the Virgin Mary on this wall painting (think Mexican political billboard) and he was basically ran out of town for it.

      I have also not heard the phrase 'tinto indio' in over 2 years. I think your opinions are wilding off base and maybe sometime in Mexico might temper your rhetoric.

      •  I live in Oaxaca (4+ / 0-)
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        seaprog, wonkydonkey, MamasGun, serrano

        I  agree that the church has very little political influence in Mexico.

        •  What's Puerto Escondido like? (3+ / 0-)
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          seaprog, wonkydonkey, MamasGun

          Yeah, I know I should see the real Mexico and not a tourist area; but cut me some slack.  I live 1200 km away from the ocean.

          I loved Quintana Roo because I could work on a good case of skin cancer and see things like the Mayan temples.

          In Oaxaca, could I see something like Monte Alban and lie about on the sand like a beached whale?

          •  Oaxaca is a cool state to visit (4+ / 0-)

            Oaxaca City is a real colonial gem, and the villages surrounding have many interesting things, and it's easy to get to Monte Laban by bus. Puerto E is either a long and curvy bus ride or a short flight away, you might also like Huatulco, which is much nicer than Puerto E in my opinion. Also the area around P. Angel and Zipotle (for the whole euro hippie experience). You'd love Oaxaca!  The also have a good futbol team, in the second divison, Cruz Azul Oaxaca.

            •  just gotts ta pop into say (0+ / 0-)

              One of my friends at my last job was a Cruz Azul hometown fan. talked about them all the time and eventually...all over the job site, people started saying Cruz Azul, Dude!  and Hey, Man, That so NOT Cruz Azul of you! It became the all purpose 'word' for about 20 Construction workers!

              fun stuff!

     the result of war between two rival groups of Programmers

              by buhdydharma on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:10:13 AM PDT

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          •  End of the road (1+ / 0-)
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            Skip Puerto Escondido unless you are a big wave surfer.

          •  Yes and no (2+ / 0-)
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            seaprog, mariachi mama

            You could see Monte Alban and lie on the beach, just not in close proximity timewise. The city of Oaxaca is a good hike from the beaches, several hours by bus (although 30-45 mins by plane).

            Just the same, trust me that YOU WANT to spend a good bit of time exploring the city of Oaxaca and the surrounding areas, regardless of whether you hit the beaches. It's a fascinating place, from Monte Alban to the various villages of the Valles Centrales to some great museums. Oaxaca is also the kind of city where just walking around with no real purpose is a wonderful thing. And then there is the Mexican food on the whole is truly one of the great cuisines of the world, and Oaxacan food is just beyond amazing.

            Buen viaje!

      •  Anti-clericalism is one thing, but... (1+ / 0-)
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        ...the culture of obedience, deferred expectations, and passive acceptance of injustice is another.  

        Authoritarian patriarchal religion plays a similar role with peasants everywhere.  it is not necessarily the Church as an institution being the master manipulator of society, so much as it is the co-optation of civic life by "tradition" and conservative social standards, by making religious festivals more important than political rallies, by keeping education, health care and social services in the hands of the Church.

        I'd be the first to admit I have not spent the time in mexico, BUT I have lived in San Francisco's Mission district for over a decade and am very familiar with Mexican culture and attitudes.  I'm also from an Eastern European Catholic background, with branches of the family still over there, and see how the "Catholic culture" promotes the status quo and resists change.

        It doesn't have to be that way, as the Church's role in Poland and Solidarity shows.  But the Church under John Paul II was more interested in fighting communism than in social justice for Latin America.

        "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" -Stephen Colbert (-6.38/ -4.21)

        by wonkydonkey on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 09:30:49 AM PDT

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        •  But (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wonkydonkey, MamasGun, Utahrd

          a lot of those national traits predate the Catholic Church in Mexico.

          The Catholic Church is not involved in education in Mexico, BTW.

          As to religious festivals superseding political events, not really true in Mexico. Yesterday 100,000 people in Oaxaca (1/10th of the cities population) marched in support of the teachers and agaisnt political repression.

          •  Compliant obedience of the peasantry... (1+ / 0-)
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   the patriarchic authority is not the sole fault of the Catholic church, but the church has often suppressed opposition to it in the interest of peace and stability.

            Mexico does have a revolutionary tradition dating back to around 1800, but the emotion was too often directed against Spain, France or the US to bring about real change in Mexican society.  And the Church has more often been on the side of the oppressors and status quo than it has championed change for the people.  That is why Mexicans are anti-clerical.  But they still cope with their condition through tradition, religious superstition and emigration rather than creating change and taking responsibility for the conditions in their society.

            I truly hope real change is on its way for the Mexican people.  But Mexico has a history of revolution followed by repression and stultification, as the new ruling elite becomes just as bad as the old ruling elite.  I guarantee that if all those who had lived for any amount of time in the US were forced to go back to Mexico, with no hope of returning to the US, the pace of change in Mexico would be accelerated greatly.

            "Reality has a well-known liberal bias" -Stephen Colbert (-6.38/ -4.21)

            by wonkydonkey on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 10:05:18 AM PDT

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          •  Speaking of Religious Festivals.... (1+ / 0-)
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            That is a very impressive turnout, considering that a Very Important Religious Festival is about to take place in Germany.

      •  how about overpopulation? (0+ / 0-)

        Mother Nature bats last.

        by pigpaste on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 11:59:00 AM PDT

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