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View Diary: The Department of Precrime and The Thought Police. UPDATED (246 comments)

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  •  clarification (3+ / 0-)

    I meant to say "The judge thought the guys who went to trial and were convicted..." because, as you know, the guys who confessed don't get to appeal.

    Mything the Point ©:
    "Examining unexamined beliefs America accepts on faith value"

    by 8ackgr0und N015e on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 02:42:28 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Well, perhaps they confessed (0+ / 0-)

      because they were completely busted.

      Or maybe they got bad legal advice.

      I dunno--if I had trained with terrorists in Pakistan, I wouldn't like my chances in front of a jury.

      •  If you supported the JDL or Kahane's party.. (0+ / 0-)

        does that make you a terrorist?

        Mything the Point ©:
        "Examining unexamined beliefs America accepts on faith value"

        by 8ackgr0und N015e on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 06:31:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  If I was off engaging in military training (0+ / 0-)

          with them, and I was helping them train, you bet.  

          •  so now the JDL is a terrorist organization? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JuliaAnn

            Mything the Point ©:
            "Examining unexamined beliefs America accepts on faith value"

            by 8ackgr0und N015e on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:19:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  What about our wingnut militias? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            EricBlair

            The second amendment admits readings that the right to bear arms specifically includes the right to do so in the context of a citizen's militia. (It's not my reading; my reading is it's only about state national guards; but it's a plausible one.) So the amendment, read that way, seems to say that groups of citizens have a right to train in militias in order to have a safeguard against government tyranny. If that right applies to a bunch of white guys in upstate Michigan, it has to apply to a bunch of Arab guys in downstate Michigan too - indeed those Arabs have more to fear from tyranny, and many of them are US citizens.

            Now, back a few years I would have said, "Fuck that interpretation; the government needs to take these wingnut militias out." After all, we've already been struck by them at Oklahoma City. But today, well let's say I'm reconsidering which interpretation of the Second Amendment I favor....

            If this goes on, these wingnut militias - and even possibly Arab-American militias - are our friends. We need to get the word out about juror nulification in case we see more trials like this.

            •  Except that isn't the accepted reading of the 2d (0+ / 0-)

              amendment.  If we went by the NRA version of the 2d amendment, no one would go to jail for gun offenses.

              The key difference, and this bears stressing, is the intent or agreement to commit illegal acts.  If the militia types are ONLY playing war games out there, but have no intent to commit any illegal acts, there's no crime.

              LET, on the other hand, is a known terrorist organization that commits acts of murder.  There is a crime involved there.

          •  got proof of that? (0+ / 0-)

            Proof?

            Not 'confessions' that were not believed by the jury ..

            Proof.

            "Rovus vulgaris americanus"
            Nasty, freshly-demoted
            Soon-to-be-indicted
            Co-conspirator
            -7.63, -9.

            by shpilk on Fri Jun 09, 2006 at 09:01:58 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  And since your into hyptheticals... (0+ / 0-)

        maybe their confessions were coerced!!

        Just when you thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...

        by reflectionsv37 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:06:09 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no doubt (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          EricBlair, reflectionsv37

          They were part of a plea bargain... I could easily see it unfold thus:

          We got 11 guys, some teenagers...think we can isolate a couple and get them to plead out by offering them a decent deal?

          Sure.

          Ok, we get a few to plead out, save the hard cases for later.  That gets us the conspiracy charges and we can then go for more stuff on the hold outs.

          Make sure they cop to wanting to fight Americans in Afghanistan.  That way we get more than the neutrality act, we also have the prospect of enemy combatant threats on the holdouts.

          Mything the Point ©:
          "Examining unexamined beliefs America accepts on faith value"

          by 8ackgr0und N015e on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:15:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's unfortunate... (0+ / 0-)

            but that's justice in this country! If you have lots of money, the rules are different. Just ask Ken Lay & Jeff Skilling!! If you don't have the cash for the fight, you plea bargain to keep from getting ram-rodded!!

            Just when you thought it couldn't possibly get any worse...

            by reflectionsv37 on Thu Jun 08, 2006 at 07:22:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, or perhaps they did because they were... (0+ / 0-)

        facing a bad choice and a really bad choice.

        Let's see, hefty sentences inside the Federal system or disappearing into the Gulag?  Hmm...what would you do?  "Confessions" which are the result of arrestees making this kind of choice are utterly unreliable...any halfway sane/rational person will sign whatever they have to in order to get the best deal they can.  

        This "they confessed" thing is the most common heap of stinking manure that LEO (cops and prosecutors) haul out on a regular basis.   Defendents are tried and convicted before they ever step into a courthouse - while they are being "processed by the system".  The entire plea system is a means of side stepping the courts - all the court does is rubber stamp after it's over.  It's like bluffing in poker - a prosecutor need only claim a strong hand - not really put it on the table - and threaten really, really ugly consequences if you don't "take the deal."

        So, yea, I guess the real answer to your question is, just like 'eyewitness' accounts, we should take 'confessions' with a huge heaping grain of salt...perhaps that is tantamount to "ignoring them".  90% of police work is sweating, wheedling or cajoling 'confessions' out of people - through one form of trickery and pressure or another.  Why do you think the single smartest thing anyone snagged by the system can do is to "lawyer up" and SHUT UP.    At the moment, they can't quite 'dissappear' you - although Hamdan is still out there...but if Alito and Roberts give the administration what it wants in Hamdan, well, then your civil rights aren't worth toilet paper - without Habeus, they can pick you up, designate you an enemy combatant, and pack you off to the gulag - forever.  They don't have to answer to anyone who wants to know where you got off to.  

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