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  •  I disagree (4+ / 0-)

    The call is simply for other TUs to have a look at something that, in the estimation of the one posting the comment link, deserves to be hidden. What the other TUs do about it is their own affair.

    TUs' reading patterns are not the same. I don't read the same diaries you do, or mcjoan, or Carnacki, or AnonymousArmy, or anybody else. There may be some overlap, but you simply can't count on that to catch all the troll slime that gets laid on this place on any given day. And AA is on point above, when he says that saying, as peeder did, that you're just going to have to endure the crap if your diary isn't "good enough" to get the kind of traffic it takes to get enough TUs with zeroes still available to dish out a couple per troll comment, is hardly a solution.

    What we should have done, in response to the overzealous TUs (accepting, argumentis causa, that there were such; I'm still not convinced it wasn't just a lot of whining about a non-existent problem) abusing their privileges, was to limit or remove their privileges--and left everyone else's alone. I can't count the number of comments I've seen, on the myriads of troll-rating discussions that have ensued since the system was changed that said something to the effect of "I'm proud that I hardly ever troll-rate comments, and I don't see what the big deal about hiding comments is anyway."

    The only way the new Kos order is going to be able to keep up with the steady (and, I would argue, steadily increasing) flow of troll traffic here is if all the TUs use both of their zeroes each and every day. And I just don't see that happening.

    So, until we can get something more reasonable than the current two-per-day limit in place, I see posting a "This needs to be hidden and I'm out of ammo!" comment as the only viable solution.

    •  to be honest (5+ / 0-)

      i didn't really see that much of a problem before. sure, there was some abuse, but not much. and true, some of it made me uncomfortable --- but stuff like troll rating always makes me uncomfortable.

      i also think some of the more --- erm --- vigorous troll raters were performing a public service. just like armando was. just like DHinMI and his impeccable BS meter do. they had the balls to do the dirty work that people like me didn't want to do. which allowed quite a few people here to keep their hands clean  and look like little angels while everyone tsked tsked the ballsy ones.

      most telling for me is that, over the long term, i don't see that the zealous troll raters and cojones laden Kosmopolitans made that many mistakes.

      but diaries like this aren't the answer. quite the opposite. this is same song, different tune. maybe worse.

      comments, however? that's always happened. that's a different animal than a diary. it's a clean up on aisle 4 call at free republic.

      and whether people are emailing one another to gather troll raters (as someone else mentioned) is meaningless. that's the nature of these kinds of forums and one reason i don't make my email publicly accessible.

      as for anonymous army, it's my opinion his case is a fairly perfect example of the flaws of both the new and old systems. he had people after him for months BEFORE the change, and was dealing with not only troll ratings, but positively libelous charges.

      at this point, i don't know what the solution is. and i honestly don't think that solution has presented itself.

      i do think, however, it's going to get pretty nasty around here before it gets better.  seems to me when i check the troll ratings these days, there's far fewer familiar names --- which is good --- the nasty habit of troll rating for disagreement appears to have stopped --- but there is always one user who has obviously shown up for the sole purpose of trolling the joint. that WILL continue and that WILL get worse. i don't doubt that for a moment.

      •  There is so much (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        musing85, cookiebear, BobzCat

        right with that comment, and thank you for the support.

        First the illogic busters like Armando, DH, Slouise, Mike S, etc....

        It's because of these people we have presidential contenders wining and dinning us.

        DU has 80,000 members and has been around way longer yet their moderation is so abysmal that people like DH, and Slouise would be banned in 20 minutes.

        Peeder wants moderators if the current system doesn't work if I'm reading his posts over the past few weeks right.

        What we are suggesting is a much more open process. Imperfect for sure but the credibility we've worked hard to achieve demands a fluid review process as the  flaws in the new systems appear.

        Here is a good example.....

        Kos gets accused of being an anti-Semite by a Lieberman fan, the site erupts and the diary is summarily debunked.

        A couple of days later a few 'trolls' show up and dump their shit all over the site.

        Then an ltte appears in a local ct paper claiming Lamont is being supported by Anti-Semites and extremists from the liberal blog dailykos.

        The Lamont campaign has two options.

        1. Defend himself and defend against the idea dKos is extremist or anti-Semitic.
        1. Distances himself from Kos.

        If Lamont chooses number one, how savvy, or capable do you think those judging are to understand troll posts and ratings systems, especially if most of the quoted comments go unchallenged?

        Sound far fetched?

        •  not at all far fetched (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          musing85, peraspera, AnonymousArmy

          before i even discovered dkos --- when dkos was barely older than a twinkle in the eye --- i had someone on another forum going after me. the person claimed to be one of the founders of free republic, and i do believe it's entirely possible he was.

          his sole purpose: to discredit me. the things he was doing i now realize are common practice for politicos slash can'trememberthename on web forums. and i see glimpses of those things here. they parallel what you describe, except on a much lower level --- after all, i was only presenting a threat to neocon ideology  on a single forum, not running for office.

          and the scenario you present for lamont, i know has happened here and i know will happen again.

          DU is a joke, as far as i'm concerned. dkos by contrast has oodles of big smarty pants, and we're lucky to have people willing to take some serious flak at some pretty great cost. the solution isn't for people to pat themselves on the back because they're unwilling or unable to be such an asshole --- the solution is for people to understand dkos is virtually an organic entity, and those so called assholes perform important jobs here.

          whether moderation is the solution, i don't know. i do think moderation is preferable to cliques w/i dkos. not that cliques aren't inevitable --- but i've watched cliques in action at other forums, and their longterm results are usually not desirable in the least. the goal is to achieve an actual solution, not a reactive one.

          but i think time will tell. and i honestly think the right solution will present itself and a lot of people will think well, dayam! that was obvious, why didn't i think of that?

          as for thanking me for support, look, i've been through it. i can smell it from a mile away. i'm watching it getting ready to happen to one of my dearest friends in real life and even spent lunch yesterday with another friend brain storming how we can help and whether we can nip it in the bud. no thanks needed here. just carry the lesson forward, try to figure out the truth (which is always hard hard hard hard hard!) and watch out for others!

      •  What would you put in its place, then? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Rita in DC, cookiebear

        most telling for me is that, over the long term, i don't see that the zealous troll raters and cojones laden Kosmopolitans made that many mistakes.

        That's my perception as well. Sure, there was some abuse going on, but the TUs tended to work it out among themselves. What one TU troll-rated, another could up-rate if s/he felt it was improperly hidden. That's the way the system always worked, and I would argue it worked well. The idea that every TU must be of the same mind on each and every comment, as put forward by some of the more zealous anti-troll-rating advocates, is just bunkum. Given that this site is home to people from all across the Democratic spectrum, of every religion and none at all, from every part of the country and most of the world, it's simplistic to expect unanimity (or even uniformity) of opinion.

        but diaries like this aren't the answer. quite the opposite. this is same song, different tune. maybe worse.

        You're right, we don't want to have call-out diaries that anyone could read. Everybody has hot buttons, and we all have bad nights/days, and I don't think there's anybody writing on this site who's been here longer than the three months it now takes to get TU status that hasn't gotten at least one zero or maybe even had a comment hidden. But those are relatively rare instances, unlike the genuine trolls who come in and spew the same garbage multiple times across the same thread (and often across multiple diaries as well). Once upon a time, when one of those was identified, TUs could go hog wild and zero out every one of the comments, and the commenter would quickly lose privileges.

        That doesn't seem to happen anymore. I'm extremely dubious about peeder's assertion that someone in administration is looking over the hidden comments and taking action to ban the repeat offenders--because the repeat offenders keep right on offending. And if he thinks autoban is so frickin' evil, then why was it (a) included in the interface in the first place and (b) fixed in the latest go-round? Autoban is there for a specific purpose, so I fail to see how helping that purpose along can reasonably be considered a bad thing.

        I have repeatedly suggested that TUs get a link to a report abuse if they've run out of zeroes. That can either be hotlined to the admins and front-pagers (which was my original concept), or it could serve as a troll reporting open thread that only TUs would see--so nobody else would be exposed to the crap that's on there, and only people who could do something about the abuse would ever see the call-outs.

        But ever since I told him what I thought of his latest revisions to the ratings system, peeder has studiously ignored every suggestion I've made (and every bug report, too, for that matter). I guess I've committed the cardinal sin of telling him what he thought were cornflakes were actually horse apples. But maybe if someone else makes the suggestion it will finally get through.

        •  i have no idea ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          musing85

          ... what should be put in its place. i honestly don't. i've begun thinking of dkos as its own ecological niche and wonder if the solution simply hasn't evolved yet or o/w moved into the arena --- you know, moved in the sense that hawks these days flock to the sound of tractors because they've figured out that mowing uncovers rats, mice, voles and other tasty goodies.

          with hawks analogous to the solution, and mice, rats & voles, the trolls.

          and i can't speak for peeder, but my sense of him is he speaks when he has something to say. maybe he has nothing to say because --- well, for whatever reason. maybe he's waiting to see what happens with the new changes. maybe he has no answers. and maybe he thinks you're the dkos equivalent of the devil incarnate :=D, although i seriously doubt it. look at his dinner last night --- given what i've seen [and envied] about your own dining choices, i suspect you two have much more in common than not. but i shouldn't even be speaking to that because --- well, i'm not peeder!

          all i know is that my gut tells me it will get worse before it gets better and those of us who care about dkos need to simply dig our heels in and wait for the voice of the ---um --- muses ;-) to strike with the solution.

          or maybe it will take a series of solutions. i don't know.

          just don't despair. my gut also says it will work out if we're willing to endure a bumpy ride.

          then again, my gut's been wrong before! but honestly, not that often.

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