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View Diary: Science Friday: Vegas Style (110 comments)

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  •  What PZ says is so (8+ / 0-)

    true: this is a science and engineering nation.  The very foundation of the country rested on Enlightenment values, the idea that science and rationality should be used to govern and better peoples' lives.

    Whenever someone says something about this being a Christian Nation my head wants to explode.  It was explicitly an Enlightenment nation.  Christianity had damned little to do with it.

    The panel sounds so cool.  Once again, I burn with jealousy for all those who were able to go...

    •  Key word: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Marc in KS, FishGuyDave

      WAS explicitly an enlightenment nation.  Sigh.

      "In the beginning the universe was created. This has been widely criticized and generally regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams

      by LithiumCola on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 05:04:33 AM PDT

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    •  the people who call us a Christian nation... (5+ / 0-)

      Are not themselves Christian. We do well to remember that. ALL their justifications and judgments come from the most primitive tribal hygiene sections of the Old Testament -- or from Paul, who seems determined to pervert Jesus' words for his own agenda. They are, to use Marvin Olasky's term against him, A La  Carte Christians -- only they're so A La Carte they are off the Christian menu altogether (although, interestingly, they seem to have no interest in actually keeping kosher, either - but then again, that's prix fixe). Calling them Christian only swells their numbers when they find it convenient to do so; in their own minds, they are the only Christians and yet they find Christ's own message repugnant. As well they should, since Jesus was a long haired, brown-skinnned, Jewish liberal.

      Yes, our founders, including Washington, took their cues from the Enlightenment, English commmon law, the resurrected classics of the Renaissance, and the Scientific Revolution. They took the best ideas of their time and started a nation based on them. We've been dumbing down ever since.

      •  Us versus Them. (3+ / 0-)

        There is a lot of identity politics in the OT and in Paul.  It makes perfect sense if you read it as a history of a nomadic people trying to keep a coherent identity as they move through different regions and foreign cultures.  (My favorite example is the allowed/forbidden recreational drugs particular to each culture.)  They constantly define how They, God's Chosen Ones, are different from the Others.  Not only different, but better of course.

        And what do we see today?  More Us versus Them mentality with the added bonus of defining not Our God versus Their God, but defining what God does and does not approve of and who is or is not Godly enough.

        We must never lose it, or sell it, or give it away. We must never let them take it from us.

        by Fabian on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 06:09:04 AM PDT

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      •  Many call them 'Christianists' or (0+ / 0-)

        the subclass of "Dominionists".

        This pulls them out of the ranks of true Christians, who actually practice the Gospel of Jesus.

    •  Key word indeed (8+ / 0-)

      I am a liberal. We live in a liberal democracy.

      That’s what we created in this country. That’s in our Constitution. ... I think we should be very clear on this.  You know, this country was founded on the principals of the Enlightenment. It was the idea that people could talk, reason, have dialogue, discuss the issues. It wasn’t founded on the idea that someone would get stuck by a divine inspiration and know everything right from wrong. I mean, people who founded this country had religion, they had strong beliefs, but they believed in reason, in dialogue, in civil discourse. We can’t lose that in this country. We’ve got to get it back.
      -- Wes Clark - September 5, 2003

      -- If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all. * Noam Chomsky

      by NCrefugee on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 05:46:56 AM PDT

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