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View Diary: Kos: The cover-up is worse than the crime. (259 comments)

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  •  A witch hunt is not a form of censorship? (1+ / 0-)
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    Nightprowlkitty

    furthermore, your statement that "This culture only seems novel to young people who refuse to study the history of dissent." is pretty clearly implying that the readers of this blog who are allowing the "witch hunts" are too young and naive to know better.  

    I think you should be more careful about what you write before you accuse others of "careless reading".

    •  No, a witch hunt is a form of mob rule (0+ / 0-)

      There was a clear implication that I was accusing Markos personally of censorship - at least that is how it sounded to me. If I misread your response, I apologize.

      My point was that there is an marked intolerance of internal dissent in this community, by this community, or at least by a vocal dominant sub-group within it, without a comparable countervailing voice.

      My point was, further, that, rather than addressing the substantive argument - that we should demand the same accountability, transparency, independence from commercial interests, strict avoidance and disclosure of even the appearance of conflict of interest and powersharing of everyone - including Markos.

      When people respond to dissenting voices by saying, "this is Markos' business, if you don't like it, make your own site", that is not a healthy trend for this community. And, it is hypocritical when the same people argue that "this is not Markos' community, he doesn't own us, we dont' have to agree with him".

      You can't have it both ways - or, rather, you can, but that weakens the movement toward fundamental reform.

      You assume I am antagonistic to that movement and that I need to be attacked - you seek to cast doubt on my credibility and credentials - why? How does any of that address the substantive critique?

      Whether my UID is 5 of 5 million, should not matter. Whether my age is 18 or 80 should not matter. Whether I post a million diaries or none should not matter - any more than the ad hominem attacks on Markos' more prominent critics matter.

      Is it not legitimate and contstructive to suggest that we apply equal standards and equal expectations from all who would speak for us? And don't pretend Markos doesn't often presume to speak for all of us. He wouldn't be on TV or radio or in print if he didn't have this community on this site.

      (and he won't even be honest about the numbers here, despite repeated polite requests. Those of us in the web dev business know how questionable "unique visitors" is as a stat of community reality. Markos has been asked to publish the numbers of people who actually have posted anything in the past 30, 60 or 90 days, and the number who have every posted a comment, and the number who have posted diaries, and the number who are active participants, according to and agreed upon metric - say, those who have posted more than a dozen comments a month for more than three months, or measured by diaries or something else.

      Do you know why he resists so? Because his ad revenue depends on the number of readers he claims, and it is in his interest to inflate those numbers - and because, traditionally in the business world, such numbers are considered proprietary.

      Does that not represent a clear conflict between his commercial interests and what is in the best interests of the reform movement? Would not a public sharing of such information, in the spirit of openness and transparency, in the interest of all of us grass-roots folks being empowered with real facts and information, would that not be the right thing to do?

      There are many, many similar instances where Markos has had the opportunity to practice what he preaches and lead by example. Not only has he chosen not to, but the community jumps on anyone who asks him to be accountable and transparent.

      The fact is, it is impossible to have intelligent, constructive conversations here about such things - even on the purely technical level, in terms of empowering more community-led decisionmaking and less top-down management and administration.

      Giving people the ability to make diaries here is not sharing power. It just gives Markos the ability to represent himself as having this big community behind him, so he can get public attention and power himself. No one here has any real power on this site, and anyone can be banished at Markos' sole whim. There is no one holding him accountable, no one to whom he is answerable, and he doesn't even share publicly his administrative decisions.

      Any time you have such a situation, it is rife for abuse.

      That is the very reason we call for institutional reform, that is the raison d'etre of this movement.

      Yet, time and time again, whenever we have been challenged to live the reform we preach, it always ends up being just about changing the faces on the marquee. We are asked to "just trust" markos that he would do things differently. Well, I'm looking at this site here, and he, infact, runs it very much like any other unaccountable business.)

      •  dont have time or energy (3+ / 0-)

        to read and respond to the whole thing right now.  It is just too late at night to do so.  But I want to clarify something about my UID comment.  The fact that you are user 81732 does not matter to me.  But the fact that you have that high a number and also have claimed to have been here in various incarnations is relevant.  My suppostion that you have had previous run-ins/issues with Markos helps to explain your position and your tone.  I just don't see it as an attack to mention these things to let Nightprowlkitty know that you are not likely to change your mind.  

        •  Speaking of censorship, (0+ / 0-)

          is not the rabid pressure to delete critical diaries an attempt to censor dissent?

          I haven't heard a single one of you defenders of propriety condemn those who call for deletion of critical diaries, who joke about a "smite this diary" button.

          Nor have I seen you condemn the vicious personal insults spewed at the diary writer.

          THIS is exactly the culture that people observe from the outside, and which dissenters experience on the inside, which leads to charges of groupthink and mobrule.

          Folks here would seem to have a lot more integrity if they devoted just a little time to criticizing those who attack the messenger and those who call for deletion of criticism.

          Focusing your attacks on me or the diary writer while ignoring the viciousness of your peers does not speak well of your own credibility in this discussion.

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