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View Diary: Lance. Armstrong or EpoStrong? (35 comments)

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  •  Credibly explained? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Capn Guts

    I don't know anything about this except what I heard on NPR the other day, but my understanding is that the Armstrong doping allegations basically come down to conflicting testimony. His former best friend and her wife testified that Armstrong admitted to taking a variety of performance enhancers in front of them, a woman who works for some company that sponsors him says that she was there at the same time and that he did not say this. Except several other people testified that she had previously told them she had heard Armstrong admit it. Like I said, I don't know much about this - I don't really care either, I actually think there is nothing wrong with performance enhancing drugs per se (I think any sport with a drug problem should have a separate division for "enhanced" people) - but after hearing the story on NPR it sounded to me like Armstrong probably has taken performance enhancers.

    "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

    by Jett on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:01:42 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I have read that Armstrong did a study (0+ / 0-)
      that measured his power output as 500 Watts!  That's about equal to a plough horse's output.  Normal people can bring about 100 Watts of power to bear.
      •  Watts mean nothing w/o duration. (0+ / 0-)

        Cippolini puts out 2200.

        Track riders put our more.

        Your average football lineman (pro) can put out that much.

        There is a lot of data on this.

        But above all:  Watts are meaningless without duration.  Wattage is just a rate of work.

        They don't govern -- they steal. Conservatism is THEFT by another name. Today, Republicanism = Conservatism = Theft. Their governance is theft.

        by Yellow Canary on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:43:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, over hours duration. (0+ / 0-)
          Short peaks are higher for normal people and I believe I read that Armstrong's peak was 1100 Watts.  I agree that's meaningless.  I'm sure a plough horse peaks much higher too.

          I cannot say that Armstrong dopes with anything.  Here's one report on his physiology.
          http://jap.physiology.org/...
          The scientists seem interested in documenting him simply because he is so far outside of normal human physiology.

          I have read stories that eunichs in ancient China served as palace bodyguards both because they could not molest the ladies and because they grew unusually large.  I sometimes wonder if losing a testicle to cancer, when combined with his truely impressive training regimen, may have led to Armstrong's super-human developement.  Either that or drugs, but the guy's abilities are not human.

          •  science! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Capn Guts

            I read about a study that tried to maximize animal lifespans, one of the things they discovered is that removing sex organs at a certain point can have significant effect on an animals health. As I recall they got a flat worm (or something similar) to live 100x it's normal lifespan by tweaking a few genes and removing it's sex organs. I also know about some famous long-distance runner who, when tested, turned out to have hyper-efficient blood - it could carry significantly more oxygen than a normal persons - he had some kind of genetic mutation. I imagine that if we had a separate Olympics for "enhanced" humans we could see some really amazing stuff...

            "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

            by Jett on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 03:15:58 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  adsf (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Capn Guts

              i'm not a scientist, so i won't try and describe it, but i've read a lot about the weirdness of lance's cardiovascular system and how it way outperforms even top atheletes.

              also important is his tolerance for pain that happens during over exercition and his cells start burning muscle for energy.  apparently that's a factor that forces other atheletes to back off on their exertion.

              •  Sorry, but that's all, um, unsupportable ... (0+ / 0-)

                ... and illogical.

                There is A LOT of literature out there on endurance athletes.  Let me mention a few points relevant to this discussion:

                Lance IS human.  Therefore there is nothing "super-human" about his performance.

                Lance won 7 straight TdF's.  His accomplishment is unique, but like most athletic records there is a better than even chance that it will broken.

                The TdF is just one bike race among many.  Lance is the best TdF rider ever.  He is not the greatest cyclist ever (that's Eddy Merckx) -- he may not even be the greatest cyclist of our time (there are a LOT of other bike races, and racers).

                While Lance test near the top of his cohort in many measurements that reasonably track with endurance cycling performance, he is not "off that chart".  In almost every category there is another cyclist racing today who tests higher.

                Pain is hard to define and harder to measure.  Endurance cycling is said to be the third most demanding of the endurance sports.  Number two is rowing, and number one is cross-country skiing.  Athletes in those sports routinely measure higher in measurements that are said to reflect tolerance for muscular fatigue.

                There has never been anything authoritative published about the "weirdness" of Lance's cardiovascular system (that I know of, and I follow this).  If you know of anything, please post a citation.

                The reasons for Lance's dominance in the recent TdF's are many, but they do not include genetic mutation.

                Please see my other post for an idea why I think Lance has out-performded his peers in the TdF.

                They don't govern -- they steal. Conservatism is THEFT by another name. Today, Republicanism = Conservatism = Theft. Their governance is theft.

                by Yellow Canary on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:23:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i don't know what you're responding to... (0+ / 0-)

                  but it isn't what i wrote.

                  I never said anything about lance armstrong being super human.  i said, "outperform."  which seems a pretty fair assesment.

                  I never said anything about him being "off the chart."  I said "outperforms even top atheletes.

                  Your comment asking me to cite authoritative published articles about "weirdness" is condescending, rude, stupid, unnecessarily argumentative and did i say stupid?  what kind of fucking idiot can't understand that that wasn't a scientific term.  not to mention that it was immediately preceeded by "i'm not a scientist, so i won't try and describe it, but...."

                  i don't know why you feel like being a dick but it's pretty unnecessary in a friendly discussion.

                  •  I suspect I owe you an apology for my tone, and . (0+ / 0-)

                    ... perhaps -- or even likely -- for the content as well.

                    I'm sorry.

                    I do not have time today to reread the thread, so I'm going to leave it at that.

                    They don't govern -- they steal. Conservatism is THEFT by another name. Today, Republicanism = Conservatism = Theft. Their governance is theft.

                    by Yellow Canary on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 11:15:32 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

    •  also (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jett, Mia Dolan

      his lead dr. at the time said armstrong didn't say anything to him about taking EPO.  and it would highly irregular (and could lead to loss of license) not to include that information in the confidential patient files.  given that he was fighting for his life at the time, had not had a spectacular cycling career to that point and probably didn't think he ever would if he even survived, he almost certainly would have been upfront with his drs.

      •  great point (0+ / 0-)

        That was the one part of the story which was odd and that I should have mentioned - his alleged confession was to two doctors who can not be identified or located.  

        "The power to dominate rests on the differential possession of knowledge" -Foucault

        by Jett on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 03:19:10 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  also (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mia Dolan

          what's his nuts wife said this happened in a big state of the union meeting about lance's health that included all sorts of people involved with his treatment.  his lead dr. said there is absolutely no way that a meeting like that would have occurred without him.

          AND, i believe that that guy is his FORMER friend.  from my reading about lance armstrong he's a pretty demanding guy and has lots of former friends who couldn't keep up with him.  i.e., got fired.   there's certainly a chance of anger and ill will there.

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