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View Diary: Just shut up about violent revolution (84 comments)

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  •  asdf (3+ / 0-)

    I wonder where we would be if the men at Lexington and Concord did not take up arms.  There comes a time when people have to make a stand especially when our leaders have failed us.

    •  Hence the reason Option 5 in poll (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sychotic1

      is leading by a mile!

      The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function -- Edward Teller.

      by lgmcp on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 02:42:32 PM PDT

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      •  When, precisely when (11+ / 0-)

        did the "political system totally break down" in Nazi Germany?  Exactly when was armed insurrection justified, even expected by the free world?

        How will we know, as we watch essential liberties slip away, that we have traversed the gaping divide between political engagement and the appearance of political engagement?  How do we mark the passing from free to pacified?

        This is the problem with this choice.  Not that I advocate violence in the streets.  But it is well documented that right up until the end the German populous thought they were free.  They thought that they had a voice.  Many were extraordinarily saddened and concerned by events.  But the watershed moment, that one that laid bare the power-lust of the Nazi party for all to see, that led to the gestalt realization that thing must change at a any cost, never came.  And then it was too late.

        So tell me.  When do I stand and be counted?  When do I live free, or die?  I really want to know.  But I, like so many, have no answer.

        •  Your questions are well-taken (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sychotic1, Major Danby

          and like you I have no answers.  What to do about the "boiling frogs" problem??  

          Many have indicated that the total suspension/"postponement" of elections would be a visible enough trigger. For this very reason it is unlikely to occur.

          I do believe that if current trends continue it is not unreasonable to characterize this as a slide toward fascism.  but it will be (or is) a long and slippery slope, not an abrupt fall over the precipice.

          The extinction of the human race will come from its inability to EMOTIONALLY comprehend the exponential function -- Edward Teller.

          by lgmcp on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 03:17:03 PM PDT

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        •  How you'll know (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sychotic1, alizard, lgmcp, Major Danby

          Go into a random public establishment like a bar or restaurant and sit with some friends.  Talk loudly about how much the government sucks.  If you get arrested, it's time.

          Frankly I think we're okay right now.  We've got a power hungry executive, but I think in the long run that will work itself out.  Where Democracies tend to come apart is when the basic fabric of society appears to be threatened.

          In Germany, the Nazis came to power as a direct result of the economic desperation that stemmed from WWI.  He came in and offered to save them, then went and built an army and blamed the jews for it all.  They were desperate and he gave them a simple but incorrect answer.  

          We saw a glimpse of how this can happen after 9/11.  It was horrific and psychologically traumatizing, but it wasn't quite the thing to push us over the edge.  Lots of bad laws were concocted, freedoms were diminished, and politicians lost elections as "traitors" for simply having the common sense to recognize what was going on.

          But I do believe it was merely a glimpse.  In the end 9/11 was bad, but not seriously damaging to society as a whole, the economy, etc.  If a nuke went off in a major city... then the game may change.

          Fascism is when the law enforcers become political enforcers.  We aren't there yet.  You can see how we could get there and that in itself is a bit spooky.  But we're not there yet.

          --- If trickle down economics worked, Marie Antoinette wouldn't have lost her head

          by sterno on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 03:21:36 PM PDT

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        •  Great question. I don't have the answer. (0+ / 0-)

          But tell me this: if and when we really get to the point of requiring such plans, is a place like DKos going to be the place to discuss them?  I think that it's obviously not, which is why I think that actual calls for violence here are silly at best.  If we're to that point at least we should make our ansplay in odecay, huh?

          My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

          by Major Danby on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 11:19:40 PM PDT

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          •  ightray. (0+ / 0-)

            utbay eway eednay otay iscussday ethay ippingtray ointpay.

            That is, the real danger in the slide to tyranny is not even realizing it has happened until it is too late.  I have no doubt that if Bush started lining people up and shooting them, there would be a revolt (if only of 51% of the population!).  But this will never be the case.  Instead, liberty will die from a thousand tiny cuts, none of which, when taken individually, demand an outraged public to respond.

            DKos is one of many places in which to discussion of what constitutes "essential liberty" is.  (Indeed, this happens all the time here, if only in the process of developing a progressive platform.)  What is it that we will not do without?  What is it that marks the passing of the American experiment?  This need not be something that has happened yet, and indeed the paucity of actual calls for violence are evidence that it hasn't.  But how do we identify the moment?  When freedom is crushed under the weight of a multitude of insults?

            I refer to Germany not because I think we are looking at a repeat of Nazism, but because it is the best example of a nation going collectively mad.  And yet, the vast majority of the German population wasn't incapacitated; they simply could not diagnose themselves.  We have a potent weapon against this kind of failure here in DKos.

            DKos is many things.  But one of the most important to me, and I suspect a lot of people here, is that it represented a sea of sanity in an insane few years.  I still do the gut check every few days, try to decide if the Republicans are really that bad, if maybe I've made them monsters only with my anger and hate.  But I no longer feel like I'm the insane one to even ask.  After wandering through the wilderness of public apathy, I have found an oasis where people do care.  We may not always agree, but we care.  And there is strength in that.  Is it enough?

            •  I have no problem with theoretical discussions (0+ / 0-)

              of when resistance (of whatever sort) would be an appropriate response to increasing government tyranny, for the reasons you indicate.  "At what point would things have gone far enough?" is a valid question, and if an agent provocateur were the one to raise it in that fashion, it would be a particularly circumspect one.  But that sort of discussion is different from calls for violent revolution now or issuing what amounts to calls for violence against the President.  Those are patently not serious discussions of what to do now, because if they were, they would not be taking place here.

              My apologies to students who took my U.S. Government class in the 90s: evidently the Constitution doesn't limit Presidential power after all. Who knew?

              by Major Danby on Sat Jul 01, 2006 at 10:18:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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