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View Diary: Catch Us Before We Fall Into the Death Spiral (291 comments)

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  •  I don't think...... (21+ / 0-)

    they want things to calm down.  When they couldn't sell the meme that Iran 'was 16 days from making a nuclear bomb' they looked for another way to do what they have lusted for in their hearts.
    Either that or it is a case of extreme brinkmanship to warn off Iran and Syria as to how close they are to 'us' bombing them.  Either way it is a very dangerous ploy.

    •  That's the binary thinking. (16+ / 0-)

      They'll never see how working to stop the violence would be in our, or their, interests.

      They only see a military "solution" to violence.  

      There are other ways.

      We must insist on those other ways.

      Susan in Port Angeles (my cat)

      by SusanHu on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 08:05:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  These Minds Are More Like Insects Than Mammals (6+ / 0-)

        Or maybe viruses.

        They perceive their interests as being the operation and consequent expansion of the military intelligence complex. Global events are a source only of triggers, not goals.

        While they are definitely running something, that 'something' is very definitely not our nation-state.

        Conceiving of this crew as 'leaders' engaged in 'governing' the 'United States' is a dangerous, possibly fatal fallacy.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 08:47:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Binary thinking (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        The problem is, binary thinking also afflicts those who only see a peaceful "solution" to violence. If there is a large group opposed to you which will not accept peace on any terms except your death, peace cannot be the answer.

        Israel would accept merely a disarmed Hizbolla. Hizbolla and its Iranian sponsors will accept nothing less than the total destruction of Israel. If Hizbolla wants peace, they can disarm, and Israel's allies will assure it withholds further punishment. If Hizbolla wants war, peace is not an option for Israel until Hizbolla is disarmed - and killed if they won't give up their arms.

        There is no other option. Technology will rapidly advance to where groups like Hizbolla can do far worse than they can today - witness the arial drone bomb Hizbolla used against the Israeli ship. Israel is current doing exactly the right - the required - thing. Anyone who would ask Israel to surrender to its destruction yet who claims to love peace either shares the goal of Hizbolla or else is severely confused. For Israel to do any less than it's doing now would be surrender - if not today, in a few short years, when Hizbolla is even better armed with Iranian missles.

        War of course can be done terribly wrong. Bush illustrates that daily. Israel does not.

        •  binary thinking (0+ / 0-)

          You are so right.  Everyone seems to be forgetting that Hezbollah has called for the destruction of Israel as has Hamas. When the rest of the world wants you dead you have to act fast to save yourself.  You can't negotiate with people who don't believe that you have the right to exist.  

          I also think that people have this situation a little backwards.  Israel did not attack Gaza or Lebanon first.  Their soldiers were kidnapped and killed by groups supported and funded by the Syrians and the Iranians.  Who has the most to gain here? Not Israel. Oh yeah, the Iranians! Why? because the heat is off them re: nuclear weapons! The world is up in arms about big bad Israel! Who's talking about sanctions against the Iranians anymore? A nuclear Iran is a scary!

          Can't we all just get along?

          by liberal from birth on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 05:51:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Continuing the Insect analogy (0+ / 0-)

          I would suggest that Israel is behaving like a doctor who uses the strongest antibiotics at the slightest sign of an infection.  This just creates stronger pathogens.  

          Just because Hizbolla wants to destroy Israel through guns doesn't Israel should destroy Hizbolla throgh guns.  Different adversaries deserve different weapons.  Hizbolla is a movement, and killing it's members (like killing members of AlQuaeda) will probably only improve recruitment.  It is not necessary for every wrong to be avenged. There are other options.  

    •  Does anyone remember - (6+ / 0-)

      An article written by Joshua Marshall for some magazine. I think it was Joshua. It could have been the Atlantic Monthly. I think it was from four years ago?  

      It opened up with a scenerio from the Middle East.
      It was set in the near future (which is now).
      Bombs falling. Instability everywhere. War. War. War.
      Just everything going to hell in a handbasket.

      And then it went on, (it was very very long) about how this is exactly what the GOP and Bush wanted.

      I wish I could find it.
      Because if it was him, he nailed everything that is happening.  

      •  Oh. I found it. (15+ / 0-)

        Here is is.

        This is how it opens...

        By Joshua Micah Marshall

        Imagine it's six months from now. The Iraq war is over. After an initial burst of joy and gratitude at being liberated from Saddam's rule, the people of Iraq are watching, and waiting, and beginning to chafe under American occupation. Across the border, in Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, our conquering presence has brought street protests and escalating violence. The United Nations and NATO are in disarray, so America is pretty much on its own. Hemmed in by budget deficits at home and limited financial assistance from allies, the Bush administration is talking again about tapping Iraq's oil reserves to offset some of the costs of the American presence--talk that is further inflaming the region. Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence has discovered fresh evidence that, prior to the war, Saddam moved quantities of biological and chemical weapons to Syria. When Syria denies having such weapons, the administration starts massing troops on the Syrian border. But as they begin to move, there is an explosion: Hezbollah terrorists from southern Lebanon blow themselves up in a Baghdad restaurant, killing dozens of Western aid workers and journalists. Knowing that Hezbollah has cells in America, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge puts the nation back on Orange Alert. FBI agents start sweeping through mosques, with a new round of arrests of Saudis, Pakistanis, Palestinians, and Yemenis.

        To most Americans, this would sound like a frightening state of affairs, the kind that would lead them to wonder how and why we had got ourselves into this mess in the first place. But to the Bush administration hawks who are guiding American foreign policy, this isn't the nightmare scenario. It's everything going as anticipated.

      •  Except for the... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mattes, subtropolis, Do Tell, bigchin

        ..."six months from now and the Iraq war is over" part.  Delusional.  It's dangerous for such delusional people to have so much power.

      •  Check him today (0+ / 0-)

        Over at Talking Points Memo he is walking a line of moderation, feeling the pain of the Palestinians, but nonetheless giving solid support to Israel over the justice of its current actions.

        •  Justice of its current actions? (4+ / 0-)

          This is from watching US news. Watching international news you see the injustice. Did you see the bodies of the children being taken out of the apartment building bombed in the middle of the night by the IDF a couple of days ago? I saw more dead Palestinian children than there have been dead Israeli civilians in this most recent mess. And this is just one incident. There are close to 150 dead Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. Are those children somehow less important than Israeli children, just because we don't see them here in the US?

          Israel has been occupying and denying the Palestinian state for almost 40 years. It blew up in the first intifada in the late 80's, seemed to get better during Oslo (a period in which Israelis' assassinated their own peacemaker and doubled the number of settlers, making Oslo impossible to implement) and has blown up again in the last five years. This is the explicitly stated reason for the existence of Hamas and Hezbollah. All parties agree (with the exception of a limited number of true extremists) that a Palestine on the 1967 borders would be viable and would result in peace. Period. Even Hamas stated as much after the recent elections, offering a long term ceasefire in return for such borders. Not "peace" but a cessation of hostilities, which is the same thing. It is Israel that has prevented this from happening and continues to, in the name of "security", in the name of facts on the ground that they of obstinately continued to create right up to today, tomorrow, etc.

          Cutting off drinking water, sewage systems and fuel from a million+ people in response to the abduction of a single soldier when you hold thousands in jail, many without charge, is simply not a just response. Bombing airports, bridges, fuel depots, neighborhood gas stations(?!?) in response to a cross border incursion is not a just response. It follows that nuking Beirut is just if the Lebanese government does not force Hezbollah to turn of those soldiers. Followed by Damascus and Tehran.

          Now the escalation of force continues, with Israel stating that it will bring Hezbollah to its knees, that it will change the status quo through the use of overwhelming force.

          Yeah, it sure worked the last time.

          War, a beautiful business--kind of like selling razor blades but much more lucrative.

          "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

          by bewert on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 11:53:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  How do apologists for Israel's actions... (3+ / 0-)

            ...justify the fact that Israel not only continued to build illegal settlements during the Oslo peace process, but actually increased the rate at which it built settlements? If you were a Palestinian watching this going on, how could you have helped but conclude that Israel was not serious about giving the Palestinians a functional state--and that therefore armed resistance to the occupation would be a more effective way to succeed in securing a state?

            •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              truong son traveler, Dvalkure

              They doubled the number of settlers during Oslo. If you were serious about peace, would you do this? No.

              "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

              by bewert on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 12:37:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  you asked... (0+ / 0-)
              I answer.

              Not at all.

              The issues are not causally related. The lebanon conflict is between two sovereign nations, one of which (Lebanon) has started attacking the other and refuses to stop.

              You can argue all your hearts out about how the Lebanese government cant control Hezbolla - as long as they don't even try (arrest of all known members, order to all security services to apprehend, diasarm and arrest anybody carrying weapons, curfews, military presence, the usual stuff) whatever they say in not credible.

              Now would they do all those things I would expect Israel to honour those actions, even if they are not 100% effective. They could even share security information, coordidnate apprehension of suspects etc.

              But as long as leading Hesbolla figures sit in cabinet insead of jail, well, thats all a pipe drem. Right now the situartion is clear: Lebanon attacks Israel, Israel responds.

              And nothing of that has any relation to the Palestinian question.

              My central problem, with all the terror apologists here (to return the favour of name calling to you) is the impression that they seem actually quite happy with a little war against Israel, a few bombs and rockets here and there, a bunch of murders and abductins, and killings. Apparently they think thats ok - and they are now furious that Israel reacts the way any other nation would react, too. It seems Israel isn't supposed to effectively defend itself.

              •  Tell that to the 250,000 Palestinian refugees (3+ / 0-)

                That have been stuck in Lebanon since 1948. That Hizbollah has nothing to do with them. And don't say their Arab brothers should take them in. They have a right to live in their forefathers lands, or at least the West Bank.

                Is terror any different if it comes from a plane in the middle of the night or from a suicide bomber in the middle of the day? No. Terror is when you go after civilians, and Israel does that every day. Watch TV from outside the US and you can see their bullets kicking up dirt around people without weapons. Like the little Palestinian girl that wandered into a forbidden zone and got a full clip for the error of her ways. That's justified? Not in my world.

                Israel has to at some point realize that military responses always lead to more hardened hatred from the people they are attacking. Putting a boot on someones neck just makes them hate you. Tearing up peoples houses as standard practice just makes them hate you more. Preventing them from getting food and water just makes them hate you even more. That's not apology, that's reality.

                "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

                by bewert on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 03:26:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I tell them.... (0+ / 0-)
                  Tell that to the 250,000 Palestinian that have been stuck in Lebanon since 1948.

                  I tell the the same I would have told my 11 million (!)fellow Germans who were driven out of their homes and cities, who lost all their property and barely escaped with their lives after WWII, when one thiord of Germany was ethnically cleansed and given to Poland and Russia.  

                  That was nearly 60 years ago, and it's history now.  Live your life where you are, stop whining, stop waiting for a saviour that will not come.  That is what we did in Germany, and it worked.

          •  I watch either BBC or Skywatch and (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bewert, truong son traveler, Dvalkure

            the story is told from an entirely different perspective.  Americans are being fed crap from our networks, Americanized crap told from the American point of view to influence American minds.

    •  Speculating about their... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      ...demented world-view: November is fast approaching. Do they expect to face electoral "brakes" on their agenda. Was there a need to speed things up? (I'm not stating a theory about what's going on. It's a Saturday morning mental wandering. "Why," is my question.)

      The United States of America has become One Giant Funny Farm.

      by nehark on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 09:18:30 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Exactly, the Conservative Ideology (4+ / 0-)

      Is that war is the only course of action, they have meant to bring this about however they could, it's all there in the Project for New American Century, and Bush is clearly following that agenda today keeping the flames of war escalated and driving a further rift into isolation for the US again with the rest of the world:

      As Israel's war on two fronts threatened to hijack the G8 summit this weekend, President George Bush promised to urge Israel to spare civilians, but refrained from asking Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to halt military operations.<snip>

      Mr Bush's refusal to press Israel to halt the offensive highlighted a growing rift between the US and European countries, after M. Chirac told an interviewer before heading to the G8: "One could ask if today there is not a sort of will to destroy Lebanon, its equipment, its roads, its communication." While condemning the scale of the Israeli response, he also added that actions of Hizbollah guerrillas in southern Lebanon were "totally irresponsible".

      No, Bush is pressing forward with this opportunity to keep the ME in warring conflict and allowing the state of Israel to fight the war that Bush cannot fight, using Isarael as a 'proxy' for war, this is an old 'Cold War' tactic.

      •  Bush is pushing forward with instability (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        truong son traveler

        It doesn't matter how this objective is accomplished, and believe me, this President Bush is not really a 'dummy' or 'failed' he has more than any other leader actually been successful in pushing through this Conservative ideological agenda of the PNAC and what is happening right now is that Bush has seen the opportunity to achieve a bit more of that agenda--he has refused to call on Israel to cease hostilities, in fact, he has said only that Israel has a 'RIGHT' to defend itself, when I saw that a couple of days ago I remarked that Bush had given the green light to Israel to do whatever it wanted--and so it has,

        right now commentators are remarking how Lebanon is being 'destroyed' and what is bush saying about this?

        Bush says that all of this began because two Israeli military were abducted and so this is the price that has to be paid--he also is attempting to get Syria  into the conflict by calling on Syria to reign in Hizbollah

        --and Israel is listening it has begun striking close to the Syrian boarder

        Isreal is dropping leaflets, just like Bush did in Iraq--telling citizens to 'reject' Hizbollah

        Isreal keeps on bombing the heck out of Lebanon, and Bush is right there, encouraging it all.

      •  But Israel is pushing us to deal (0+ / 0-)

        with Iran.

        "Israel is NOT interested in talking" ....only bombing. Bushco + Kadima = One Mind

        by mattes on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 10:59:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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