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View Diary: Catch Us Before We Fall Into the Death Spiral (291 comments)

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  •  Check him today (0+ / 0-)

    Over at Talking Points Memo he is walking a line of moderation, feeling the pain of the Palestinians, but nonetheless giving solid support to Israel over the justice of its current actions.

    •  Justice of its current actions? (4+ / 0-)

      This is from watching US news. Watching international news you see the injustice. Did you see the bodies of the children being taken out of the apartment building bombed in the middle of the night by the IDF a couple of days ago? I saw more dead Palestinian children than there have been dead Israeli civilians in this most recent mess. And this is just one incident. There are close to 150 dead Palestinian and Lebanese civilians. Are those children somehow less important than Israeli children, just because we don't see them here in the US?

      Israel has been occupying and denying the Palestinian state for almost 40 years. It blew up in the first intifada in the late 80's, seemed to get better during Oslo (a period in which Israelis' assassinated their own peacemaker and doubled the number of settlers, making Oslo impossible to implement) and has blown up again in the last five years. This is the explicitly stated reason for the existence of Hamas and Hezbollah. All parties agree (with the exception of a limited number of true extremists) that a Palestine on the 1967 borders would be viable and would result in peace. Period. Even Hamas stated as much after the recent elections, offering a long term ceasefire in return for such borders. Not "peace" but a cessation of hostilities, which is the same thing. It is Israel that has prevented this from happening and continues to, in the name of "security", in the name of facts on the ground that they of obstinately continued to create right up to today, tomorrow, etc.

      Cutting off drinking water, sewage systems and fuel from a million+ people in response to the abduction of a single soldier when you hold thousands in jail, many without charge, is simply not a just response. Bombing airports, bridges, fuel depots, neighborhood gas stations(?!?) in response to a cross border incursion is not a just response. It follows that nuking Beirut is just if the Lebanese government does not force Hezbollah to turn of those soldiers. Followed by Damascus and Tehran.

      Now the escalation of force continues, with Israel stating that it will bring Hezbollah to its knees, that it will change the status quo through the use of overwhelming force.

      Yeah, it sure worked the last time.

      War, a beautiful business--kind of like selling razor blades but much more lucrative.

      "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

      by bewert on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 11:53:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How do apologists for Israel's actions... (3+ / 0-)

        ...justify the fact that Israel not only continued to build illegal settlements during the Oslo peace process, but actually increased the rate at which it built settlements? If you were a Palestinian watching this going on, how could you have helped but conclude that Israel was not serious about giving the Palestinians a functional state--and that therefore armed resistance to the occupation would be a more effective way to succeed in securing a state?

        •  Exactly (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          truong son traveler, Dvalkure

          They doubled the number of settlers during Oslo. If you were serious about peace, would you do this? No.

          "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

          by bewert on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 12:37:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  you asked... (0+ / 0-)
          I answer.

          Not at all.

          The issues are not causally related. The lebanon conflict is between two sovereign nations, one of which (Lebanon) has started attacking the other and refuses to stop.

          You can argue all your hearts out about how the Lebanese government cant control Hezbolla - as long as they don't even try (arrest of all known members, order to all security services to apprehend, diasarm and arrest anybody carrying weapons, curfews, military presence, the usual stuff) whatever they say in not credible.

          Now would they do all those things I would expect Israel to honour those actions, even if they are not 100% effective. They could even share security information, coordidnate apprehension of suspects etc.

          But as long as leading Hesbolla figures sit in cabinet insead of jail, well, thats all a pipe drem. Right now the situartion is clear: Lebanon attacks Israel, Israel responds.

          And nothing of that has any relation to the Palestinian question.

          My central problem, with all the terror apologists here (to return the favour of name calling to you) is the impression that they seem actually quite happy with a little war against Israel, a few bombs and rockets here and there, a bunch of murders and abductins, and killings. Apparently they think thats ok - and they are now furious that Israel reacts the way any other nation would react, too. It seems Israel isn't supposed to effectively defend itself.

          •  Tell that to the 250,000 Palestinian refugees (3+ / 0-)

            That have been stuck in Lebanon since 1948. That Hizbollah has nothing to do with them. And don't say their Arab brothers should take them in. They have a right to live in their forefathers lands, or at least the West Bank.

            Is terror any different if it comes from a plane in the middle of the night or from a suicide bomber in the middle of the day? No. Terror is when you go after civilians, and Israel does that every day. Watch TV from outside the US and you can see their bullets kicking up dirt around people without weapons. Like the little Palestinian girl that wandered into a forbidden zone and got a full clip for the error of her ways. That's justified? Not in my world.

            Israel has to at some point realize that military responses always lead to more hardened hatred from the people they are attacking. Putting a boot on someones neck just makes them hate you. Tearing up peoples houses as standard practice just makes them hate you more. Preventing them from getting food and water just makes them hate you even more. That's not apology, that's reality.

            "Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about the things that matter." Dr. ML King, from a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama in 1963.

            by bewert on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 03:26:34 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I tell them.... (0+ / 0-)
              Tell that to the 250,000 Palestinian that have been stuck in Lebanon since 1948.

              I tell the the same I would have told my 11 million (!)fellow Germans who were driven out of their homes and cities, who lost all their property and barely escaped with their lives after WWII, when one thiord of Germany was ethnically cleansed and given to Poland and Russia.  

              That was nearly 60 years ago, and it's history now.  Live your life where you are, stop whining, stop waiting for a saviour that will not come.  That is what we did in Germany, and it worked.

      •  I watch either BBC or Skywatch and (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        bewert, truong son traveler, Dvalkure

        the story is told from an entirely different perspective.  Americans are being fed crap from our networks, Americanized crap told from the American point of view to influence American minds.

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