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View Diary: The case against Zionism, a historical perspective part 1. (162 comments)

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  •  % of Population (0+ / 0-)

    Jews are a tiny percent of the population wherever they are.  That's why they fight so hard for minority rights for everyone.  And that's why American Jews are predominantly liberal Democrats -- because the Democratic Party fights hard for minority rights.  Jewish never took anyone else's land anywhere.  That's simply a total lie.  Since you're not supporting the Democratic Party, and it's principals of minority rights, why are you posting on DKos?

    •  they were a minority (1+ / 0-)
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      Thaddaeus Toad

      until they used violence to become a majority,and then opressed the rights of the minority.

      The israeli's commited massacres, and then stole the land of palestinian refugees. it is a historical fact.

    •  minority rights? yes - in the USA (3+ / 0-)
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      Goldfish, Thaddaeus Toad, Petronella

      Sorry, I'm confused tailor.  I'm an old sceptic and you'll forgive me, but since when did fealty to a foreign state, become a central plank of the democratic party?

      That's the leap you're asking us all to make, isn't it?

      "the fools, the fools, they've left us our Fenian Dead" (Padraig Pearse - Gay Revolutionary)

      by padraig pearse on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 06:22:06 PM PDT

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      •  I'm saying no such thing (0+ / 0-)

        I'm just pointing out that a key constituency of the Democratic Party in the US are Jewish people and they vote overwhelmingly Democratic.  They also, for all the obvious reasons, overwhelmingly support the State of Israel.  If the Democratic Party alienates its Jewish-American friend and supporters, it will lose every election since it would be doomed in the big cities.  There is nothing about fealty to a foreign country here.  It is just logic.  Irish people are fond of Ireland, Italian people are fond of Italy, etc. That's natural, but with Jews, the support of Israel is a matter of life and death. Jews, were virtually annihilated in Europe during WWII and know that only with a strong Israel can the culture and the people survive.  American Jews are also leaders in the liberal Democratic movement and were leaders in civil rights, against racism, for gay rights and just about all other liberal causes.  If you are truly a liberal Democrat, you should recognize the value that American Jews offer to the Democratic Party and understand that in their hour of need, they would expect the support of people that they supported over the past few decades.

        •  So its a quid pro quo, huh? (0+ / 0-)

          Jews only supported Democrats so that when Israel flies off the handle to the point that it makes George Bush look like a peacenik we'd surrender our moral imperatives and help you out?

          I’m sorry, I make my decisions on who to give aid based on my own moral compass, and that’s not something I’ll surrender just because someone’s voted Democratic. This is a bullshit argument, and is as insulting as it is stupid.

          Anyone who voted against the patriot act is too good for the Senate

          Feingold for President

          by Goldfish on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:46:33 PM PDT

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          •  heyya Goldfish (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Goldfish

            I came back to see if omachoomar's history lesson Part II was ready yet when I noticed your comments flagged [new].  

            The battle done moved on now, and you're stabbing the dead.  I have to say I admire your determination.

            You're completely right you know, but, having seen my blood pressure meter burst over the weekend, I see things a little different now that I've had some time to think on it.  

            Doesn't matter how smart we are, we're all vulnerable to the effects of old lies told to us as children growing up.  Generation after generation brings forward the past through stories.  Some of them are true in metaphorical sense, but most of them are lies when viewed as literal truth.  Now the art of story telling is all but dead and the old culture dies along with the story tellers who told them.  I don't know if that's entirely a good thing or a bad thing.  Probably some of both.  

            But it's important as we regard history as it was told not to retrofit the values of our own time to the values of a previous time.  It's easy to look around having the benefits of laser disks and Internet and all the accoutrements of "modern" life and judge those of the past too harshly.  How could those people live that way?  They were so "primative" etc.

            Don't fall for it.  It's like one of those fun-house mirrors that makes you look short or tall or fat.  Our understanding of the present distorts our understanding of the past, because we make the error of believing that all the information that is available to us was available to the people who went before us.

            History takes place in its own context and perhaps future generations will judge our time as harshly as we judge those before us, or as kindly.

            So when one says Israel never took anyone's land, for example, to them it's not really bullshit.  Because that's the lie that they've been fed and apparently they had no opportunity to examine that lie in another context.

            You step back far enough, especially here in the United States, where we build our homes on top of Native American graves, and you find yourself inside an larger lie.  

            I will posit, within the context of this great historical series that omachoomar is writing, that Americans in general are a lot better in general at believing the lies they tell themselves than the Jews ever where.  Not only have we discarded the past we now have the power to rule the world completely and without hardly any resistence whatsover.  And everyone knows that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

            We are now living inside the congressional-military-industrial complex like a Matrix where taxpayers are viewed as mere sources of revenue for the arms sellers.  Our product is war, and we're just expanding our markets.

            "If you see a good fight, get in it." Dr. Vernon Johns

            by servantsavant on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 04:37:04 PM PDT

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            •  The comment was still fresh enough (0+ / 0-)

              For ratings, so I figured I'd add my two cents.

              As far as the big picture goes, I agree with you. But if someone here makes claims which I know to be false, I will cross-examine them on those claims, regardless of what greater forces may be at work.

              Anyone who voted against the patriot act is too good for the Senate

              Feingold for President

              by Goldfish on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 04:43:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  What a BS artist (0+ / 0-)

      "Jewish never took anyone else's land anywhere."

      How can you say that with a straight face? I mean, really how can you say that and not get laughed out of the room?

      The thing that makes it so truly hilarious is that it’s only American Jews who perpetrate that kind of fiction. No one in Israel believes it, no matter if they think they have a right to the land or not. They know it belonged to someone else before it belonged to them, but for some reason I can‘t fully explain, there are a lot of American Jew who try to pretend it didn’t happen.

      Sorry, but that bullshit isn’t going to fly. You can do your best to justify the taking of land by Israel, on whatever grounds might be plausible, but don’t insult me and everyone else reading your ridiculous post by denying history!

      Anyone who voted against the patriot act is too good for the Senate

      Feingold for President

      by Goldfish on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:40:25 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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