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View Diary: The case against Zionism, a historical perspective part 1. (162 comments)

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  •  During a time of war (0+ / 0-)

    There are compromises that need to be made.  For security reasons the family reunification has had to be changed.  You might think of it as racist, BUT the fact is that this was a serious security problem that had to be addressed.  

    The legislation did not pass easily, and was debated and worked over.

    The wall has been moved when the supreme court made their decision.  Again, during a time of war, there are hard decisions to be made.  The security of the Nation is a difficult responsiblity.  The fence was NOT put up right after 1967, but only in response to actual deaths and bombings.  It is a security fence.  The Palestinian leadership refused to help create a secure border, and Israel could not wait any longer.

    Did Israel ever move settlements, evict settlers?  You know the answer.  In Sinai, and in Gaza the facts are known.  Giving up Jerusalem will be more difficult, and we can have that discussion if you really want to.  However Human rights watch was wrong about the fence around GAZA, and they just might be wrong about the West Bank.

    Racist?  Hardly.  Palestinians who choose violence and hatred recieve different treatment than palestinians who choose peace.  

    •  The lenghts you go to justify racism (0+ / 0-)

      Because there was a debate in parliment, that makes it okay for a democracy to be unjust? There were people against slavery in America, does that mean it was okay because there was a debate about it?  The wall was not put on Israeli territory, it was in many many spots but on arab territory to seperate arabs from there land.    

      Yes, Israel left Gaza, but promised more settlements in better territory, in the west bank. They just started another settlement in the west bank.  During the 8 years of peace in the 90's barak continued building more and more exclusive jewish settlements, which was illegal according to international law.  You can't justify illegal, immoral, racist, settlements by saying Israel left other settlements, which they never should have taken in the first place.

      Palestinians are collectively punished. For example the Israeli's destoryed electrical grid in Gaza, a war crime that collectively punishes all people in Gaza.

      IF it was really a security fence it would not incorporate palestinian territory into its land.

      •  No matter what you say, the enemy is worse (0+ / 0-)

        I have done my best to explain to you that you are uninformed, decieved, or just plain full of bull.  I can't decide which any more.

        8 years of peace?  Did I miss that?  Or maybe when jews are murdered you don't count that?

        The fence is on SOME Israeli territory, and some of it is on the other side of the greenline.  Unless you think of all of Israel Palestinian territory.

        When countries gain land in a war, they are not normally expected to give it back until after the war. AND they don't normally give it to a different country.  (Who occupied Gaza and the Westbank BEFORE 1967?)

        "illegal, immoral, racist, settlements"  - OPINION

        FACT - The settlements are not illegal until after hostilities are done.  AND the war isn't over until the Palestinians are willing to live in peace.
        The fact is that the palestinians have done ZERO to deserve any kind peace.  They have done not one step towards accepting Israel, and living side by side.

        The Palestinians elected a government now, and that government represents their people.  That government has called for the destruction of Israel, and the deaths of all Jews everywhere (please read Hamas Charter).  That government purposely attacked Israel over a period of months.
        You may not consider rockets fired into residential areas including schools to be an attack.  You might not think of kidnapping and killing soldiers an attack.  However most people would.  

        When those missles/rockets destroyed property and killed people was that illegal "collective punishment"?  Why not?  

        "IF it was really a security fence it would not incorporate palestinian territory into its land."  - OPINION

        FACT - It is set up to stop terrorists from catching a bus and blowing up children.  If all they cared about was a land grab, then the IDF could clear the land in a week without any fence.  They are accused of massacres and ethnic cleansing anyway.  Nope, they won the land in a war.  It cost them blood and money.  UNTIL the hositlities are over, they can keep the land (international law).  This isn't about water or land.  Israel does what it does for security.  Unless you suscribe to the Zionist plot to rule the world crap.  

        •  responding again. (0+ / 0-)

          During the 8 years leading up to the 2000 accords, there was peace between palestinians and Israel, and Israel during that time continued to expand the settlements.  Does peace mean there was 0 terrorists attacks?  Unfortunately not, since 100 percent efforts to stop terrorism don't lead to 100 percent results.

          If the fence was really about protecting israel, they could have put the entire fence on Israel territory. But they did'nt, they decided to seperate palestinians from there land.  It amazes me how much you remind me of President bush supporters.  ALl you need is some politician explaining why killing/stealing from others is justified, and you buy it hook, line, and sinker.

          Countries are not expected to BUILD SETTLEMENTS ON LAND THEY GAIN in a war.  It is illegal to build settlements on conquered territory as well as extremely immoral.  The settlements are clearly illegal, it is a consensus among human rights lawyers. Yes, Unfortunately the Palestinians did elect Hamas.  But after 39 years of opression and extreme poverty, it is no suprise.

          I agree that Hamas firing indisrimate rockets is a war crime and morally wrong and is collective punishment. Too bad you wont admit that attacking the electrical grid is a war crime and immoral.  

          How can you say with a straight face its not about land and water? It must partly have to do with these things.  Why would they take so much more water per capita if it really had nothing to do with water?  If you are saying it has nothing to do with water, then you are saying that they leave palestinians with little water just for the sake of punishing them.

          Israel does not build settlements for its security. It builds them because of greed.  Israel does not take a disporportionate amount of water to fight terrorism. that is silly.

          Finally, ponder this question. The current PM of Israel has stated that he is planning on keeping alot settler territory even if there is a final peace agreement.  Do you support palestinian territory being annexed forever to Israel?

          •  Peace, and security (0+ / 0-)

            Right, you are clear about this:

            Even when Jews are murdered, it is still PEACE in your mind.

            Well, it isn't peace.  

            "It is illegal to build settlements on conquered territory as well as extremely immoral." -- OPINION

            FACT - AFTER hostilities cease, land MIGHT be returned, USUALLY in return for something.  

            If the other side refuses to cease hostilities (which is the real immoral act), there is no law, or moral code that say you still have to return the land or anything.  In fact it can be argued that it is suicide to do so.

            See? No peace.  Hostilities have continued.  All that is needed for peace is for the muslim and arab countries at war to lay down their arms.  If Israel were to do that, then they would get slaughtered.

            Israel has asked for two things, and two things only in all the 60 years.  Peace, and security.  Any country that has given that (Egypt, Jordan) has recieved land and fortune in return.  It is not about water, it is not about oil, it is not about punishing.  It is about having a place where jews can go NO MATTER WHAT.  If they are being chased by Russian pagroms, they have a place to go.  If they are being chased by Nazis, that have a place to go.  If they are being ethnically cleased from their home by EVERY MUSLIM AND ARAB LAND, they have a place to go!  That is what Eretz Israel is about.

            NOW please respond to my proof that you lied in your diary about the Rabin quote.  A quote that is central to your assertion that Israel started the 1967 war.  A quote that was part of changing your mind about the 1967 war.  Update your diary to reflect the truth.  Failure to do so will be proof to me and many here that you found the quote on an anti semetic website, and that you only posted this diary to add to the anti semetic noise.

            •  I am looking into the rabin quote. (0+ / 0-)

              The source I read it from did not put it in the context you did. Not that I don't trust you, but since you are constantly sladering me I will take the time to verify it, but since I work full time and don't speak french it will take me some time.  
              I did'nt get the quote from an anti-semtic website, I got it from a website done by Jews who believe a great injustice has been done to palestinians.

              Your fact regarding settlements is just what usually happens(which you don't back up) not what the law or moral thing to do is.  

              The fact is even when There was peace in the 8 years leading up to 2000, Israel continued to expand its illegal(FACT) settlements.  I think over that time there was only one terrorist attack from Palestinians(and I also believe during this time Palestinians were murdered by Jewish extrimists, and the settlements continued to expand, a war crime).    

              It is a lie that israel has only asked for  peace and security.  they have asked to illegally build settlements, immorally take quality land and natural resources, leaving the palestinians in a humamanitarian crisis to better there financial and economic situation, at the behest of the extremist right.

              Jews have not been ethnically cleansed from every arab land. There are still jewish communities in Syria and Iraq for example.  

              But even if that was true,It amazes me how many times you will excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior. You say because Arabs discriminate against jews in other places it is okay to opress palestinians.  You justify killing innocent palestinian children intentionally by point ing out that palestinian terrorists attack innocents.  If you think killing innocents is wrong, then you should also think responding by killing innocents is wrong. Unfortunately you are the idealogical soulmate of osama bin laden, you think  the answer to disagreeing with a governemnts action is to kill there innocent civillians.    

              •  spreading a big lie (0+ / 0-)

                Over and over you state opinion as fact:
                "The fact is even when There was peace in the 8 years leading up to 2000, Israel continued to expand its illegal(FACT) settlements.  I think over that time there was only one terrorist attack from Palestinians(and I also believe during this time Palestinians were murdered by Jewish extrimists, and the settlements continued to expand, a war crime)."

                You think?  Or Fact?  You need to get this right.  It is very important to your thesis.

                BTW, the illegallity of settlements is debatable.  Not a fact, it is opinion.

                Either you are so wrong about terror attacks in Israel, or we need to define terror attacks.  In anycase deceptive whitewashing of palestinian terrorist attacks is extremely objectionable.

                I should not have to give you a big long list, but one example (FACT) - 1996, February 25 - March 4: A series of four suicide bombings in Israel leave 60 murdered and 284 wounded within just 10 days.  PEACE?  Only if you don't count Jewish bodies.

                Reality is that only after 2001 did the American Public start to take serious note of Terror attacks.

                Jews have been ethnically cleansed from every MUSLIM and Arab land. Communities that had 50,000 people now have less than 100 jews.  THAT IS ETHNIC CLEANSING.  Just because there might be a few jews left, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.  I suppose there might be a few jews still living in the Ukraine as well.  You need to read about the 750,000 jews cleansed from Muslim and Arab lands after 1948.

                No right of return for them.

                It is ONLY YOUR OPINION that I ever "excuse bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior".  HOWEVER, bad behavior that is the result of other bad behavior might just be the definition of self defence.  And I suspect the image of Jews defending themselves is a real problem for you.

                The Rabin quote is a very good example of slander.  The actual article says exactly the opposite of what you (and so many websites) try to say it does.  It cannot be an accident.  FACT - It is a perfect example of spreading a big lie.  If you don't correct your diary, you are guilty!

                •  More from the soulmate of OBL (0+ / 0-)

                  in what is today Jordan?  Syria?  Iraq? UAE?  I want you to list how and when the ethnic cleansing occured in every arab country since you claim they all commited ethnic cleansing.

                  "HOWEVER, bad behavior that is the result of other bad behavior might just be the definition of self defence. "
                  attacking innocent civillians because other innocent civillians were killed is not self defence, it is murder, which you support by your previous comments in which you defended israeli's attacking civiliians because Hamas attacks civiliians.  I really hope you never gain a position in any government, since you are an advocate of killing civiliians.

                  •  You call me Osama? (0+ / 0-)

                    There is a funny rule about flame wars... The first person to call the other HITLER, loses.
                    I think the same should apply when one calls the other Osama.  (I am actually laughing at this).

                    I HAVE NEVER advocated the killing of civilians.

                    Not once.  Not ever.  BUT thank for playing the game.

                    BECAUSE YOU ASKED!  Can you please just look up "Jewish exodus from Arab lands" in Wikipedia?  Exodus is a nice word for what happened. (just to be clear, this is just one fast-to-find source.  If you desire others, I highly recommend Sir Martin Gilbert.)  You can also Google "jews expelled from arab".

                    BTW it does not count if there were almost no jews to speak of in a Arab / Muslim land to begin with.  I mean of course that you don't see jews ethnicly cleansed where there are no jews to begin with.

                    However lets look at the documentaion on Iraq.

                    "In 1948, there were approximately 150,000 Jews in Iraq. In 2003, there were 100 left, though there are reports that small numbers of Jews are returning in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq."

                    Now the antisemites will try and relate that they just left on their own accord, in order to live in Israel.  OR that zionists forced them to leave, in order to convince them to live in Israel.  This never takes into consideration the official government role in arresting, torturing, and murdering jews. In every case this "emigration" followed documentable discrimination, harassment, persecution, and financial confiscation on the part of the majority population and/or government agencies.  FACT is that there were jews in Iraq before there was a Mohammed.  In fact there is evidence of Jews living in Iraq 2500 years ago.

                    Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad.  

                    NOW LET US BE CLEAR I do not mention this in order to justify anything EXCEPT the creation of a land where jews can count on returning to.  There has to be a land where jewish refugees will be welcomed.  When people are killing jews wholesale, there must be a place to go.  There have been jews in Israel for more than 3000 years. Jews have though of Jerusalem as the religious home for more that 3000 years.

                    So although I would have preferred they picked Hawaii, the enormous history forces the jews to settle in Israel.

                    YOU talk about massacres. You talk about wholesale killing of Palestinians.  You called them victims of ethnic cleansing.  Yet the number of people who self identify as Palestinian has actually increased during the same time.  I certainly don't mean that palestinian people haven't been killed, and havn't suffered.  However I put the blame on the leadership of the Palestinian people (specifically Arafat).  I certainly see no indication or documentation of massacres (whole villages being slaughtered as is you opinion), or actual ethnic cleansing.  When I walked down the streets of Tel Aviv I saw Arabs, muslims, and palestinians.  Every sign I saw has arabic on it.  Muslim holidays are state holidays.  Arabic is an official language.  

                    Ethnic Cleansing?  Nope.

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