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View Diary: Diebold Is At It Again! (45 comments)

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  •  Of course there is; (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anonymousredvest18

    but what's your point?  That circumstantial evidence, in any quanitity, is no evidence and must be rejected out of hand?

    •  no (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Arken

      but Vilsack, last time I knew, wasn't arguing that the election was stolen, just that the machines were vulnerable, so in that instance, no, no one has been troll rated for saying what Vilsack has been.

      And while circumstancial evidence can be used, it is exactly that: circumstancial, and should be taken with large grains of salt.

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      by FleetAdmiralJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:33:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Of course, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anonymousredvest18

        the whole purpose of having paperless voting is to prevent the possibility of evidence.

        And Mr. Kennedy seems to have a more extreme opinion than Mr. Vilsack.

        •  there is other way to gather evidence (0+ / 0-)

          such as testimony or convincing circumstancial evidence where fraud is the best explanation.

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          by FleetAdmiralJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:42:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Some folks are impossible to convince, (0+ / 0-)

            of course.  

            •  well yes (0+ / 0-)

              but i'm one who likes using occam's razor, especially in these situations, and so far I haven't seen a fraud claim backed by a piece of circumstancial evidence that's survived that test

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              by FleetAdmiralJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:50:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  That hasn't survived *your* test, (0+ / 0-)

                nota bene.

                •  well the only evidence (0+ / 0-)

                  that i've seen that really tries to argue that actual votes have been changed (and not just an attempt to prevent people from voting to begin with) has been the exit poll argument, in which there has been enough evidence thrown out there that to believe that the exit polling argument by itself proves anything is almost beyond silly.

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                  by FleetAdmiralJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:00:53 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What would you accept (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Grand Poobah, anonymousredvest18
                    as evidence?

                    Say you pressed "McKinney" and got her opponent.  Would you then need

                    --independent bipartisan witnesses to the screen error
                    --independent bipartisan computer specialists to confirm that the vote had indeed registered for the opponent on the computer's memory chip
                    --independent bipartisan computer specialists to confirm that this particular error was traceable and counted erroneously in the final tally?

                    If so, I submit you've established an impossibly high standard of evidence.

                    Correct me if your standards are "lower."

                    •  Of course, all this is only evidence (0+ / 0-)

                      demonstrating that the machines are unreliable and untrustworthy, not that they were programmed fraudulently.

                      But I can live with that, as long as we get rid of the machines.

                  •  what about the persistent rightward skew of error (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Grand Poobah, anonymousredvest18

                    I have written a few lines of code in my time.  One could argue that if these were simply nonpartisan errors, over time they'd have a nonpartisan skew, rather than one which persistently favors whichever candidate is furthest to the right.  Lookit Mexico.  Lookit Ohio.  Lookit the last gubernatorial election in FL.  And lookit Dekalb county GA.  If this was random error, wouldn't the leftmost candidtae catch a break some time?

                    And of course that is statistical, which is not quite the same thing as circumstantial evidence.

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