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View Diary: Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon [w/update] (205 comments)

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  •  I don't buy this for a second, (9+ / 0-)

    I was around for Israel's occupation of south Lebanon, working in a Palestinian refugee camp, Ein el-Hilweh.

    If you want to talk about ethnic cleansing, perhaps you will give some thought to Lebanon's Kafka-esque refusal to allow the Palestinians to leave their camps.  The Palestinians exist in a political twilight, treated far worse in Arab countries than in Israel itself, which does let Palestinians into Israel to work.

    Since their arrival in Lebanon nearly 50 years ago, the experience of Palestinian refugees was one of marginalization, suffering, repression and armed violence. They were considered a threat to the Lebanese people and were treated as second-class citizens. Unlike Palestinian refugees elsewhere, Palestinians in Lebanon have been denied basic social and economic rights for a substantial portion of their 52 years in exile. The Palestinians were kept apart from the Lebanese population, not allowed to assimilate even if they wanted to.

    Hizb'allah I remember well.  They did not allow the Blue Helmets into their regions of influence.  The Hizb'allah maltreat the Christians, Sunni and Druze, and their contempt for the rule of law is legendary.

    If Israel demands civilians leave south Lebanon, it is because Hizb'allah uses civilians as human shields.  I do not have any love for Israel, my heart goes out to the Palestinians, who cannot leave their camps.  Talk of Israeli Puppets and all such horseshit drives me to tell you a thing or three about the realities of Lebanon and the Palestinians.

    The one bright light in Lebanon was Rafik Hariri, a man I met once in passing.  His light has been snuffed out, and Lebanon, a country I love, is now sliding into the abyss.  

    People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

    by BlaiseP on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 12:29:03 PM PDT

    •  Your argument makes no sense (7+ / 0-)
      You are saying: Israel can't be engaged in ethnic cleansing, because Arabs aren't any nicer to Palestinians than Israelis are. Or: Israel can't be engaged in ethnic cleansing, because it's Hezzbolah that's making them do it. In either case, if Israel's actions lead to ethnic cleansing, then it's ethnic cleansing.

      If one follows your logic, then it is Britain and the US, not Germany, that were responsible for the Holocaust, since Britain and the US wouldn't allow European Jews to flee to Britain or the US. If Britain and the US had allowed this, there would have been no Holocaust: Hitler was prepared to settle for ethnic cleansing.

      Liberalism is the origin and center of American politics. Thus, to reject liberalism is to reject America.

      by Alexander on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 12:45:18 PM PDT

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      •  Don't equivocate with me. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        weirdscenes, michael1104

        This is not Ethnic Cleansing.  Hizb'allah refuses to disarm in accordance with 1559, and has made the life of ordinary Lebanese a complete horror.  Their destruction of Beirut stands with any atrocity in history.  As for the rest of your inane post, may I invoke Godwin's Law.

        People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

        by BlaiseP on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 12:50:24 PM PDT

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        •  'and has made the life of ordinary Lebanese (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          anonymousredvest18

          a complete horror"...then why do they have so much support?

          Will America survive 30 more months of a Bushco Administration? Bushco changing hearts and minds everyday!

          by mattes on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 02:13:48 PM PDT

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          •  They don't. They annihilated the Amal. n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueness

            They have all the political credence of a street gang.

            People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

            by BlaiseP on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 02:17:28 PM PDT

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            •  Any street gangs provide (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              anonymousredvest18

              food, shelter, social services? Where LA? <snark>

              Will America survive 30 more months of a Bushco Administration? Bushco changing hearts and minds everyday!

              by mattes on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 02:20:08 PM PDT

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              •  You clearly haven't seen a street gang (0+ / 0-)

                in operation.  Yes, they do provide these things.  Hizb'allah's money comes from Iran, supplemented by a large criminal enterprise.   Now, about Hizb'allah's failure to disarm under UN resolution 1559, as did the other militias, perhaps you'll favor me with your personal interpretation.   Unless somehow you believe tens of thousands of Katyusha rockets are somehow required for Social Services, Food and Shelter.

                People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

                by BlaiseP on Sun Jul 23, 2006 at 03:28:53 AM PDT

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            •  ....and do they sell drugs, gambling (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              anonymousredvest18

              and prostitution?

              Will America survive 30 more months of a Bushco Administration? Bushco changing hearts and minds everyday!

              by mattes on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 02:21:19 PM PDT

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              •  Yes, and they forge currency (0+ / 0-)

                US currency, to be more precise.  They deal in arms, stolen cars, and drugs.  Hizb'allah is all over, a great many of them are in Paraguay.

                People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

                by BlaiseP on Sun Jul 23, 2006 at 03:26:25 AM PDT

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    •  Write more please. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Rogneid, blueness

      Your perspective sounds valuable.

      Is America finally suffering from Idiot Fatigue?

      by LarryInNYC on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 12:47:57 PM PDT

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    •  well the Palestinians would not be (4+ / 0-)

      forced to be in Lebanon if not for Israel would they?  

      •  Not entirely true, but true enough (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lemon999, Rogneid, blueness

        to warrant some commentary.  It's something of a myth to say Israel ejected the forefathers of today's camp Palestinians, for most of the Palestinians were Syrian, Jordanian and even Iraqis who had come to British Mandate Palestine in search of jobs.  Many of the nomadic Bedouin were forcibly settled by the British and Turks before them.  

        Neither Israel nor Jordan wanted these people.

        To really understand what happened, you must understand the Turks didn't have land deeds the way we do in the West.  The pasha or bey owned everything, land was only grant-leased to the fellahin.  The fellahin lived on the land at the suffrance of the pasha, there were no property rights we'd recognize today.

        This in no way mitigates or exculpates the Israelis, but the Palestinians who stayed in Israel were granted rights far greater than any other Arab state.   Israel should have paid for the land, as the early Zionists did, and Weizmann warned of what would happen should Israel steal land.

        People are usually more convinced by reasons they discovered themselves than by those found by others.

        by BlaiseP on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 01:23:39 PM PDT

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      •  How quickly we forget. n/t (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anonymousredvest18

        Will America survive 30 more months of a Bushco Administration? Bushco changing hearts and minds everyday!

        by mattes on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 02:14:13 PM PDT

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    •  What in blazes? (5+ / 0-)

      You are introducing past mistreatment of Palestinian refugees by the former government of Lebanon as if it were some species of justification for Israel's present course of action. It is nothing of the sort.

      If Hizb'allah in fact uses civilians as human shields, than Israel damn well has to find some other way of dealing with Hisb'allah, rather than bombing hell out someone elses hostages. Otherwise, the are committing a war crime. Pure and simple, no two ways to it. This ain't Entebbe.

      Explain to me how your allegations, if true, would justify the deliberate destruction of infrastructure in Beiruit. How could one justify the alleged blockading of the ports, which constitutes an act of war against the legitimate government of Lebanon?

      I think I see that you are declining to take Israel's side out, with your left hand, but with your right, you seem to be wanting to do so because of your loathing of Hizb'allah. What's this all about for you? I mean, I'm sorry for your friend, but your responses seem extreme and not very coherent.

      the past keeps knock knock knockin' on my door. and i don't want to hear it anymore. (Lou Reed)

      by Boreal Ecologist on Sat Jul 22, 2006 at 02:19:27 PM PDT

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