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View Diary: Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon [w/update] (205 comments)

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  •  Source, please, regarding Jerusalem ... (0+ / 0-)

    ...The difficulty is that under the Ottomans, who probably undercounted everyone, Jerusalem was not just the city, but a district that included a much broader area. There was no specific count for the city itself. In the 1931 (British Mandate) census, Jews were a minority in the Jerusalem sub-district (smaller than the Ottoman district) that included adjacent suburbs of Eyn Karem, Beit Zeit, et cetera. Of the total population in 1931, only about 52,000 out of 132,000 were Jewish.

    Anyone who has taken even a cursory look at population studies of the region know that the numbers are slippery at best. The Ottoman Census was certainly an undercount. Other statistics, even the 1922 and 1931 Mandate versions, also probably did not count everyone. So, it's left to interpretation based on one's prejudices.

    For instance, Joan Peters in her disputed 1984 book From Time Immemorial claimed there were only 92,000 Arabs in the entire area that would become the future Israel. The Turkish census put that number at about 198,000.

    All this just shows how foolish it is to based moral claims to the land on the numbers of Arabs or Jews who may have been living there.  

    •  Actually the Ottoman census tended to UNDERCOUNT (0+ / 0-)

      anyone who was NOT a Muslim.

      Basic is to think in terms of percentages.

      The Arabs were in fact the most RECENT additions to the population of the region having conquereed Jerusalem in the year 634.

      The Jews had started returning to Palestine in general and to both Jerusalem and Safed very shortly after the Emperor COnstantine moved the capital to Byzantium in the early 4th Century.

      By the early 6th century it is estimated that they made up around ten percent of the population of Palestine and perhaps as much as 13 percent.

      HOwever they concentrated in one city at that point. Jerusalem. WHen the crusader came to slaughter the infidel, at least in Jerusalem, he killed more Jews and Christians than Muslims.

      By 1918 the earliest British counts indicate that out of a population of about 67,000 for Jerusalem 12,000 were Muslims, 12,500 were Christian and the rest...Jews.

      The fact is that far from being absent from Palestine, there were Jews in fair numbers throught its entire history and they made up a fair percent of the population by the time of the arrival of those Arabs who would later be called Palestinians.

      One fact that is always neglected is that there are no "ethnic" Palestinians.

      Most of the arrivals to Palestins who were Arabs were Arabs from other bordering nations, like Syria, Jordan,Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon and so on.

      Most Jews and Arabs came to escape the economic problems and political repression in their own regions and simply decided that while the British were another conquering nations, that living under them might be more comfirtable than what they were used to.
      However life for the Jews was far more uncomfortable, they were far more repressed that the Arabs, who were the ruling class. NO matter how poor te Arab, his status was always higher than that of a Jew or Christian so the need to escape repression was far greater for Jews or Christians than for Arabs,

      Next, the very term Palestinian is rather misleading as it is a recent creation. Up until the Partion the term Palestinian applied EQUALLY to a Palestinian Jew or Arab. If you wanted to be specific you used Palestinian Jew or Palestinian Arab.

      With regard to those who fought for the British against both the Ottoman and the Nazis the term Palestinian always applied to JEWS. Palestinian Arbs did not fight, though OTHER Arabs did against the Ottomans.

      Once Israel was created this term "Palestinian" was used to identify ANY Arab who was a resident of Palestine at the time of partition. The idea that there is some ethnic regional group called a Palestinian is again another modern myth created in order to crate som sort of sympathy for a group that essentially did not exist as an indepenmdent group. The Palestinian Arabs were almost all as much immigrants to Palestine as the Jews were. And the fact that they were from the same region is irrelevant. Most of the Jews also emigrated from the same places that most of the Jews did.

      The Muslims are pulling similar tricks in Lebanon.

      They will NOT allow Lebanese who left Lebanon to return as citizens because if the majority of Lebanese who left returned, 80 percent of the returnees would be CHRISTIAN Lebanese.

      During the ethnic cleansings of Christians during the civil war between 1975 and 1990 many Chistians escaped Lebanon to avoid being slaughtered. Muslims, in particular the Shi'ites created laws that do not allow those who left to come home.

      Among the various demographic statements about Jerusalem:

      1. The city of Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since about 1896 - The city of Jerusalem itself there was a Jewish majority since about 1896, but probably not before. The district of Jerusalem (as opposed to the city) comprised a very wide area in Ottoman and British times, in which there was a Muslim majority. This included Jericho, Bethlehem and other towns.  Within the Jerusalem district, there was a subdistrict of Jerusalem that includes many of the immediate suburbs such as Eyn Karem, Beit Zeit etc. In that subdistrict, the Jews remained a minority , with only about 52,000 out of 132,000 persons in 1931 for example.

      At the SAME site... down a rather LONG scroll of page you find:

      The Population of Jerusalem in Ottoman and British Times

      The population of Jerusalem has been a matter of contention because of respective Jewish and Arab claims to the city. We must be careful to emphasize that the focus must be on the population of the city of Jerusalem within municipal boundaries, or of the population of "greater Jerusalem" including the the immediately surrounding Arab villages and neighborhoods such as Deir Yassin, Lifta, Beit Safafa etc. The population of the Palestine district of Jerusalem (approximately corresponding to Qouds in the Ottoman Empire) is irrelevant. The latter included a much wider area that encompassed Jericho, Bethlehem and other separate towns and villages. According to the Anglo-American Survey of 1946, the population of the city of Jerusalem in 1946 was made up as given in Table 10 below.

      There was a plurality of Jews in Jerusalem in the late 19th century, but perhaps not a majority. Ottoman census figures underestimated the number of Jews, many of whom remained foreign nationals.  However, we can be fairly confident that there has been a Jewish majority in the municipal boundaries of  Jerusalem since before the beginning of the twentieth century.


      In the subdistrict of Jerusalem within the Jerusalem district, the picture is different. The subdistrict included villages such as Lifta and Ein Karem that might properly belong as suburbs of Jerusalem, but it also included towns that were outside the "greater Jerusalem area" at least at the time. The subdistrict further included Bethlehem, Jericho and surroundings, which are scarcely relevant to describing the population of Jerusalem proper.   In that whole area there were 132,600 persons in 1931, of which 78,000 were Arabs. The 1946 Anglo-American survey found about 150,00 Arabs in the  Jerusalem subdistrict, and about 102,000 Jews.

      However this table runs from 1844 to 1945

      In every year noted Jews are the majotity of the population

      For example it cites a population for Jerusalem of 15510 with 500 Muslims, 3390 Christians and 712 Jews making the Jewish population 45 percent of the total.

      Move to 1922, the year of the San Remo Conference in which the Mandate was conferred on the British and you get:

      Total 52081.

      Muslims 13,411

      Christian 4,699

      Jews 33,971

      That is a period of 78 years in which the jews were in the majority of the population of Palestine even with odd over and undercounting it is the percentage and ratios that would most important.

      SInce it is unlikely that the Jews were doing the count under the Ottoman, the fact that they are in a majority seems to be more than likely CORRECT even if inaccuracies can be claimed.
      Certainly the count in 1922 when the British took over would be far less inaccurate than the Ottoman.

      Remember the Ottoman count was for TAX purposes and it is somewhat difficult to collect from non existant peoples. Jews and Christians had to pay special taxes in order to live in Muslim lands, so the count of Christians and Jews was more than likely to be very accurate.

      Muslim also had to pay other taxes, but this also was an accurate method of counting citizens.

      THe dfact remains that pretty much all counts from Ottoman and British period sho a Jewish majority for Jerusalem gong back as far as the 1840's

      It is NOT unlikely. For all of the modern talk about Jerusalem being the thrid holiest city of Islam, it was fairly much abandoned by Arabs after the Mongols invaded the Middle east in the 13th century.

      It was not one of the Islamic Garden spots like Baghdad or Damascus.

      It was a backwater, much like Rome became a backwater for centuries after the capital was moved to Constantinople.

      Rome's population for centuries was lower than 15,000.

      It is NOT unusual for this to be the case for Jerusalem.

      The major shift in populations came AFTER the British started creating many nations that have no real historical existance.

      Iraq and Jordan were created in order to give the sons of the Sherif of Mecca jobs in order to placate them for giving Arabia to the Saud family.

      The new rulers were a lot more brutal towards non Muslims than the earlier rulers had been.

      or 65.2 percent of the population of Jerusalem being Jewish in 1922.

      •  Unfortately liberals have become (0+ / 0-)

        mindless puppets of rather clever Muslim Arab

        Regardless of recent revisionistic and politically correct efforts to
        portray the decision to partition Palestine as illegal, immoral or
        unethicalm that decision was in fact the ONLY legal, moral and
        ethical decision possible.

        Historical fact indicated that Jews were present in Palestine
        for millenia and that the vast majority of Jews who were residents
        of Palestine were in fact Jews who emigrated from Muslim nations
        just as the "Palestinian Arabs" migrated to Palestine from other
        Arab nations.

        The majoritity of Palestinian Arabs migrated to Palestine from the
        same Arab nations in the region as the Jews did.

        The fact remains that the term Palestinian is relatively recent and refered to
        ANY resident of Palestine, Arab OR Jewish until the creation of Israel.

        Prior to this the term "Palestinian" applied to any resident of Palestine
        regardless of religious affiliation

        Once Israel came into being Jews became Israeli and Arabs who
        were residents in Palestine at the time of partition became "Palestinians.

        But current political correctness seems to favor Arabs who migrated from one
        area of the Middle East  for economic reasons to Jews who migrated from
        Baghdad or Damascus or Jordan when  those nations were created after
        World War I. The New Rulers who were in fact not locals but Arabians
        were a good deal less tolerant of non Muslims and Jews and Christians
        started experiencing a good deal MORE intolerance and abuse from the
        new bosses than they had before.

        So they had FAR greater reason to move to an areas under western
        rule than the average Arab who decided to move to Palestine.

        The Arab, no matter how poor or uneducated was still higher on
        the social ladder in any Muslim nation than Jew Or Christian

        There was EVERY reason to expect that ARAB rule over Jew
        or Christian in Palestine would be every bit as brutal as it was under
        the Ottomans. You know, those guys who gave you the
        first modern genocide. It was a Muslim  against non Muslims.

        The behavior of Muslim Arabs  in the past was used as a guideto how they just might treat
        non Muslims in a single state Palestine.

        And long before the Nazi's it had been decided by many experts in diplomacy
        that a single state solution would not result in minorities being treated as
        equal citizens.

        The very same principals were used by another population that was smaller
        by proportion than the Jews were to partition another nation.

        The Muslims of the Indian Subcontinent DEMANDED that partition
        because they refused to be ruled by Hindus who they insisted would not
        rule over Muslims fairly. At the time of partition Muslims were half as
        large a percentage of the Indian subcontinent as Jews were in Palestine

        But as we all know, such demands for self rule and self determination and
        complaints of unjust rule ONLy apply when it is the Muslim who may have
        to be the minority.

        It all simply boils down to WHO was a resident of Palestine at the time of

        The Nazi's did their jobs very well. And what they did NOT finish the Stalinist terror

        Every self professed liberal racist exclaims that the Jews whoud be shipped back to
        Eastern Europe when the fact is very few Jews from Eastern Europe made it to
        Israel during the peropd before or after partition.

        Russians would NOT allow them to emigrate.

        Nor would Poles

        Most of the Polish Jews who did not die while the Nazis controlled Poland  did when the Poles
        returned to power under communism. Poles would  not allow Jews to leave for fear that the
        stories of Polish  complicity with the Holocause would result in Poles being tried along with
        Nazi's at Nuremberg. So Jews were denied exit visas from Poland.

        Yet they were NOT allowed to return to the homes and properities that they owned before Nazi
        rule and they could not be allowed to make claims for the return of that property in international
        courts either. The result. The Stalinists eliminated almost ALL of the 300,000 Polish Jews who
        survived the holocaust.

        And the Polish Jews were the most gently treated Jews left in Eastern Europe after
        the fall of the Nazi regime.

        Those Polish Jews who did escape did so by trying to climb the Carpathians and Tatras
        unaided, in winter. Three out of four died in the attempt.

        An finally when they DID get out most of these Eastern European Jews did not
        go to Israel.

        Most went to the Americas

        So those who parrot the Iranian leaders are basically parroting
        racist falsehoods.

        Though it was mostly European Jews who led the government of Israel
        and worked towards partition, the majority of the Jews of the Jewish partition
        of Palestine were just as Middle Eastern as any Arab.

        And the politically right wing government of Israel is elected
        primarily by those  Orientan Jews who most clearly have
        experienced ARAB rule.

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