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  •  I'm going to be nice... (0+ / 0-)

    ... and assume you don't know what you are talking about.

    Do you honestly believe that Sweden, Denmark, and New Zealand are not committed to the "public good" simply because they insist that PARENTS have a meaningful choice about where and how their children are educated?

    In the United States, only the wealthiest parents have any choice about where there kids go to school.  If you can't afford to move, you are stuck with the public school in your neighborhood.  Tell me, Representative Miller, what percentage of our public schools would you be happy sending your children to?  

    In Sweden and in Denmark (both well known for being against social justice and the public good) EVERY parent has a choice about where they send their kids.  

    And it's not just about "quality."  I'd be perfectly happy sending my kids to the local public school based on rough measures like ACT scores.  But what about other important matters.  If you want to learn a foreign language in elementary school here, you have to WIN the lottery.  How's that for excellence and fairness?

    Do you believe in phonics?  How much art, music, physical education, values education, etc... does your child need.  In the US, it's basically one size fits all.  Except kids are different, and what works for one is not so good for another.  Yet, you insist that for the poorest, one size fits all.

    The grass is greener where it's watered.

    by decon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 12:39:07 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  ok (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jules too, khereva

      Do you honestly believe that Sweden, Denmark, and New Zealand are not committed to the "public good" simply because they insist that PARENTS have a meaningful choice about where and how their children are educated?

      In the United States, only the wealthiest parents have any choice about where there kids go to school.  If you can't afford to move, you are stuck with the public school in your neighborhood.  Tell me, Representative Miller, what percentage of our public schools would you be happy sending your children to?  

      You asked for it.

      "In Sweden and in Denmark (both well known for being against social justice and the public good) EVERY parent has a choice about where they send their kids. "

      I'll trade you your school choice plan and private vouchers for the rest of the Scandinavian welfare state and their tax structure.  You up for that?

      "And it's not just about "quality."  I'd be perfectly happy sending my kids to the local public school based on rough measures like ACT scores.  But what about other important matters.  If you want to learn a foreign language in elementary school here, you have to WIN the lottery.  How's that for excellence and fairness?"

      I don't know where your kid is in school, but here in Wake County, multiple foreign languages are taught in the public schools, and there are more magnet progams being added each day.  Your point is well-taken in those small rurual or big city districts that are struggling for resources.  Will you join me in calling for public schools to be funded by something other than property taxes, which lock in the difference between moneyed and poor districts?  My hunch is no.  But hey, let the free market decide, right?  I just know that there are entrepreneurs lining up to build private schools in Hoke County, NC.  The Lumbees have so much largesse to spread around, ya know?

      "Do you believe in phonics?  How much art, music, physical education, values education, etc... does your child need.  In the US, it's basically one size fits all.  Except kids are different, and what works for one is not so good for another.  Yet, you insist that for the poorest, one size fits all."

      Believe in phonics?  What the hell is that supposed to mean?  Have you ever even been in a school?  Do you even know a teacher?

      There are legitimate criticisms to be leveled at school systems.  One is the increasing tendency to judge performance solely on the basis of scores on standardized tests.  Of course every student will not perform the same or learn the same.  That is a basic tenet of education and psychology.  So who are the people pushing most loudly for "accountability" and testing?  THE SAME JERKS TRYING TO DESTROY THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM WITH VOUCHERS.

      If you pass vouchers, the private schools will up their tuition to some multiple of the voucher, and the public schools will be left with the same kids they have now.  It's really that simple.

      And oh, by the way, public schools are competing just fine.  Of course, without Brad Miller's actions, as described above, we would never have known that.

      JRE 2008 "80% of republicans are democrats who don't know what's going on." - Bobby Kennedy, Jr.

      by DrFrankLives on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 12:54:48 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  bah (0+ / 0-)

        we need an edit function.

        JRE 2008 "80% of republicans are democrats who don't know what's going on." - Bobby Kennedy, Jr.

        by DrFrankLives on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 12:57:29 PM PDT

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      •  This is more like it. (0+ / 0-)
        1.  So you are for holding our kids hostage until you get what you want on other spending & tax issues?  That's bullshit.  But for what it's worth, I'm personally all for publicly funded universal healthcare and don't know why other conservatives aren't for it as well.  As a moral matter, its the right thing to do, and as a practical matter it's just a matter of time before companies like GM go broke and/or become uncompetitive in a world economy because of their healthcare obligations.  
        1.  The bit about phonics is simply my shorthand attempt to quickly allude to legitimate disagreements over pedagogy.  And yes I've been to school, as a student and as a teacher, for over 25 years.  Different things work for different kids.  Different parents want different things for their kids.  In the US system there is very little possibility to achieve excellence by meeting all these different needs and wants.  Whatever the local school board decides is what you are going to get.
        1. The voucher debate really isn't as simple as you want to make it.  Most proponents make their case clumsily.  Most opponents have an uninformed knee jerk reaction.  See the Swedish system for one real live working example (it's not just theory, but proven in action) of a very good case study of what we COULD have.

        The grass is greener where it's watered.

        by decon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 01:16:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  i'm going to be impolite (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SecondComing, jules too

      and assume you're an ass.

      Have a bit more respect for a Congressman, for crying out loud.

      JRE 2008 "80% of republicans are democrats who don't know what's going on." - Bobby Kennedy, Jr.

      by DrFrankLives on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 12:58:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I'll show respect... (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        DrFrankLives

        ... when some respect is shown for me.  It is extremely disrespectful to willfully mislead, and it is extremely disrespectful to suggest I don't care for the "public good" or the poorest amoung us simply because I believe our current system of educating children is FUBAR.

        Grovel if you want.  I'll have known of it whether it is a Republican or Democrat doing the lying, misleading, and slandering.

        The grass is greener where it's watered.

        by decon on Fri Jul 28, 2006 at 01:05:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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