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  •  True (0+ / 0-)

    True that they've endorsed Lieberman for the 2004 presidential nomination.

    But despite that, they do have some very smart political analysis. Their arts/literature section is pretty good too.

    •  They also (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      whometense, seby1689, joanneleon

      endorsed him for president during the 2004 primaries. And their coverage of the Middle East is seriously slanted toward Israel.

      And before you flame me, I am married to a Jew who insisted we cancel our TNR subscription because of the coverage of MidEast issues.

      •  However (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        seby1689

        Their endorsement with him came with about 4 other endorsements written by staff writers.  It made the endorsement seem pretty weak - something that Beinart and Peretz may have agreed upon, but the rest of the staff didn't.  They're an open shop where ideas are concerned, and their recent reporting on Lieberman makes it clear that they don't care for what he's doing.  So reducing them to a Lieberman rag really doesn't capture what they do.  They had a delicious piece on Katherine Harris's implosion that any Kos reader would enjoy.

        "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

        by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 09:17:06 AM PDT

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        •  On the other hand, they did publish this (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          seby1689, jfadden, Joelarama

          revolting Martin Peretz manifesto arguing in favor of John freaking Bolton's confirmation.

          They are infuriating.  They have the brains to know better, but their general neocon tendencies keep driving their editorial bus into a ditch.

          My husband has a subscription because he likes reading their arts coverage.  It makes me just see red.

          "Has Senator McCain's Straight Talk Express been rerouted through Bullshit Town?" - Jon Stewart

          by whometense on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 09:23:25 AM PDT

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          •  on the other hand (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            seby1689

            Peretz also wrote in favor of Al Gore in 2008 - something I suspect a lot of people here would embrace as well.

            I don't really care for Peretz a whole lot, but folks like Spencer Ackerman, who has tirelessly chronicled the mess we are in in Iraq, John Judis, who has reported on the ways that the recent UK terror bust has been overhyped, and Ryan Lizza, who has done quite a lot to unmask George Allen do NOT deserve the neocon label.  Ignore the editorials (though the ones on Darfur are quite good) and you may enjoy the magazine after all.

            "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

            by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 09:33:13 AM PDT

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            •  Yeah... if you (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              seby1689

              treat TNR like Jefferson treated the Bible, then you could probably come up with a decent magazine.

              Quarterly?

              "I desire what is good. Therefore, everyone who does not agree with me is a traitor." King George III

              by ogre on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 09:35:12 AM PDT

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              •  it just seems pleasantly heterogeneous (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                seby1689

                Outside of the editorials there never seems to be a rigid party line.  They're a bunch of smart people in there who enjoy being contrarian - even (especially) toward each other.  In the end sum we benefit from their reporting.

                "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

                by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 09:37:34 AM PDT

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            •  I imagine that's true. (0+ / 0-)

              But as a confirmed Kerry supporter, he didn't make any headway with me with that one either.  I'm aware that puts me in the minority here, but so be it.

              Peretz's views on Israel are too hardened and too right wing friendly to allow me to view anything he says with an unjaundiced eye.

              "Has Senator McCain's Straight Talk Express been rerouted through Bullshit Town?" - Jon Stewart

              by whometense on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 10:33:15 AM PDT

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              •  admittedly (0+ / 0-)

                yeah, Peretz is way to the right there - he's a pretty idiosyncratic dude.  I'm much more enthused about the staff writers - Lizza, Cottle, Judis et. al.

                "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

                by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 10:35:18 AM PDT

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                •  They do have some excellent writers. (0+ / 0-)

                  Honestly, their total antipathy for Kerry has angered me over and over again and left me less than openminded about the magazine.

                  Probably no one who wasn't with Kerry back in late 2003 would remember this, but in their bigh 2004 endorsement issue (yeah, the one where they came out in support of Lieberman) they wrote cases for all the other major candidates.  Except Kerry.

                  They never mention him except to mock or belittle or insult.

                  Granted, I'm biased.  But at the very least, Kerry is a good man, an honest one, and a good democrat, and I cannot imagine what he ever did to deserve such an attitude.  For me, that bias calls into question both their integrity and their prejudices.

                  The sole exception I can think of at the moment was a decently fair-minded article about Kerry's youth that was written by Franklin Foer, John Kerry, Teen Outcast

                  "Has Senator McCain's Straight Talk Express been rerouted through Bullshit Town?" - Jon Stewart

                  by whometense on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 10:52:31 AM PDT

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                  •  they had their moments (0+ / 0-)

                    Alas, I cannot join you in expressing support for Kerry at the present time.  I did support him back in the day.  I had a gander at their 10/18/04 issue which featured the following:

                    • a critical deconstruction of the Republican flip-flopper meme, being employed against Kerry
                    • a Gregg Easterbrook piece praising Kerry's environmental policy plan
                    • a Peter Beinart defense against the charge that Kerry lacked ideas on Iraq, placing the blame on Dubya
                    • a Ryan Lizza piece on how the Kerry campaign learned from Gore's mistakes
                    though also:
                    • a Lawrence Kaplan piece on Kerry's foreign policy advisors - not quite as positive

                    I think they got behind him as the party did, but have had no respect for him afterward.  That, though seems to be the general trend with Democrats.  In that sense, TNR hasn't really deviated from the mean.  I'm quite tempted to submit you to a questionnaire, because you're the first 2006 vintage Kerry fan I've encountered.

                    "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

                    by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 11:05:04 AM PDT

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                    •  No kidding? (0+ / 0-)

                      A questionnaire, huh?  I'm game - though I'm not the wonkiest of his supporters, to be sure.

                      "Has Senator McCain's Straight Talk Express been rerouted through Bullshit Town?" - Jon Stewart

                      by whometense on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 11:28:26 AM PDT

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                      •  I was half kidding (0+ / 0-)

                        but let's give it a go - please feel free to be brief if you want

                        • what seem the main causes of the 2004 loss to you?
                        • if any of these bear on Kerry, do you see him surmounting them in 08?
                        • what deficiencies in the current field of Dems do you see Kerry addressing?

                        "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

                        by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 11:36:49 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Okay - (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          fstlicho
                          • I believe that but for Kenneth Blackwell he would have won.  I believe that there was (so far sadly unprovable) widespread voter disenfranchisement and that recounts were faked (Ohio) or not done at all (I'm talking to you, Bill Richardson.)

                          As far as the campaign goes, I think the biggest problem for Kerry was that 5-week(?) gap between the end of the democratic convention and the republicans'.  Kerry had toyed with the idea of not formally accepting the nomination in July so he could keep spending his primary money through that period.  The howls of the indignant forced him to give up that idea, but left him vulnerable to cheap shot attacks in the interim.  Hence the swifties - contrary to popular opinion, he did fight back, but the media being what it is they kept amplifying it, and if he'd spent money then to counter the attacks he would have been short late in the campaign.  I think that 5 week differential was the difference.

                          • I think he's done everything possible to keep fighting the good fight since the election.  He's gotten out front on a number of issues that are important to the democratic voters, and signed on to efforts that others have initiated.  He's supported with money and his personal presence innumerable democratic candidates all over the country, in an effort to win back control of Congress this fall.

                          I do think that if he decides to run again he will run differently.  One thing I love about Kerry is his ability to absorb new information and learn and grow.  That's the sunny side of the stupid flip-flop label.  Self-righteous stubbornness is not a quality I want to see in a president.

                          • When I look at the current field this is what I see (apologies in advance if I offend anyone's favorite)

                          Biden is too self-involved and too prone to shooting his mouth off without thinking first.  Plus, concise he is not.

                          Hillary - well - I don't know who the voters are who say they will vote for her, but I sure don't know any of them.  Her negatives are very high - even among women.  

                          Edwards - I just don't admire him the way a lot of people seem to.  I think his wife is amazing, but I find him simplistic and too inexperienced.  I think his lack of foreign policy cred will be a serious issue.

                          Warner - heard him interviewed on This Week a while back, and was unimpressed - see Edwards re: foreign policy, only more so.  I'm not sure that he will be seen as ready for the job.

                          Who else?  Bayh - eh.  Don't see what there is to get excited about.  I don't think Gore's going to run, but I'd still vote for Kerry over him.  I don't see Feingold as a great choice for the general election, though I like him.  Of all the others who are expressing interest, I'd have to say I like Dodd the most, after Kerry.  He's solid.

                          Kerry's solid and exciting.  I know it's not popular here to acknowledge it, but the cheering throngs he drew by the end of the 2004 campaign were a dramatic illustration of a lot more than an "anyone but Bush" appeal.  I think the way he's conducted himself since then demonstrates the stuff he's made of  - a real toughness, as opposed to cowboy George's pretend swagger.

                          "Has Senator McCain's Straight Talk Express been rerouted through Bullshit Town?" - Jon Stewart

                          by whometense on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 12:11:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  well put (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            whometense

                            Thanks for this - you make a strong case for someone a lot of us have written off.  It's refreshing to dispel the conventional wisdom that seems to accumulate after a race.  It does make me want to rethink my own after-analysis of the race.

                            I, for the record, am still on the fence.  Chats with Europeans make me acutely interested in an Obama candidacy, on the premise that he'd be quite popular internationally.  I do agree on the unlikelihood of a Gore run.  I do really think we need someone with an instinctive grasp of rural campaigning, and Obama's Kansas years have given him a heads up in that department.

                            "There will always be two different views / Of the same thing, baby / Too many views with loaded pride." - The Fixx

                            by fstlicho on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 12:44:34 PM PDT

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                          •  thanks for listening with an open mind. (0+ / 0-)

                            There seem to be more people willing to consider all the possibilities these days - but there still aren't as many as one would wish.

                            I will vote in the general election for whoever the dem nominee is, but if he's running, Kerry has my vote and my active support from the start.  I like Obama, but he's still really inexperienced and to me kind of a political cipher.  He's got charisma to burn, for sure, and is very intelligent.  But I put Kerry over him for experience; Kerry's no slouch in the overseas diplomacy department either.  

                            Plus, I just trust him, for a lot of reasons.  

                            "Has Senator McCain's Straight Talk Express been rerouted through Bullshit Town?" - Jon Stewart

                            by whometense on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 03:13:24 PM PDT

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    •  Eh (0+ / 0-)

      Their arts/literature section pretty much defines "liberal elitism".  Not that that's a BAD thing, necessarily, but it definitely suggests the magazine is born and bred for a niche market.  I'm a little younger than their target demographic, of course, so I may be biased...

      Read James Loewen's "Sundown Towns"!

      by ChicagoDem on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 09:24:38 AM PDT

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    •  Their arts/literature section (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      bustacap

      Their arts/literature section is pretty good too.

      It will be a lot better now that Siegel is gone.

      Who can forget his execrable piece on "Eyes Wide Shut," which was verifiably one of the ten worst movies of the decade. Naturally, Siegel just loved it, and simply could not understand why every other critic in the known world had slammed it so badly. If anyone ever watched it - which is a truly daunting task to be sure - it would be no mystery as to why it was universally despised, except, of course, by Siegel.

      A friend of mine, who happens to be an Oscar winning producer himself and knows a little something about film, as well as having known Kubrick for many years, summed it up when I asked him about his thoughts on the movie. "Stanley died one movie too late."  My friend is no twenty or thirty something either, more like a seventy something.  Some time after that, apropos of some other conversation we were having about film critics, I showed him Siegel's review. He read about half of it, stopped and said, "This guy's a moron, and he knows fucking nothing about the movies. Do you want another drink? I'm hungry, let's start dinner."

      TNR, for whatever it's worth, will be better without Siegel. How good that is, is another discussion.

      A liberal is a man so broadminded he wouldn't take his own side in an argument........Robert Frost

      by mjshep on Tue Sep 05, 2006 at 10:14:44 AM PDT

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